Episode 12: Claiming Power for Self + Sharing Power across Generations, Part 1 with Mary E. Scott Boria

Oct 29

“Shared Power is an evolving process.” - Mary Scott Boria

Mary Scott Boria grew up as a Black child in a biracial family, bouncing from her home in small town Michigan to Chicago, Illinois. She participated in her first protests with her white mother in the sixties and later joined the women’s movement as a teen mother herself.

Mary is an inspiration to young activists for her relationship-based mentorship and willingness to pay attention and listen to minority voices. She’s both strong and soft, bold and quiet, courageous and thoughtful. I hope you enjoy her wisdom and her story!

In this episode, you’ll hear Part 1 of our two-part conversation.

Mary shares her diverse family history, her first experiences with the women’s movement and working inside an abortion clinic, how she’s learned to speak up in shared spaces - as someone who’s generally very shy, and the ways she creates Shared Power in her activist work.

“It’s wonderful to see young people experience this moment… it’s not a wonderful moment, but it’s wonderful to see what young people [can] create.” - Mary Scott Boria

Listen to the Full Episode

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

[0:39] - Mary grew up in the sixties between small town Michigan and Chicago
[5:35] - She was a Black child in a biracial family
[7:56 ]- She rejected her white mother… until she discovered more of her history
[13:58] - The campaigns, organizations & life experiences that shaped Mary
[16:35] - When Mary got involved in the women’s movement & reproductive rights
[25:09] - It starts with paying attention… and requires hard work
[28:16] - When your body is telling you to speak up… but you’re scared!
[33:36] - Shared Power is an evolving process
[35:41] - When the leadership is manipulative, how do you continue to develop relationships?
[41:40] - Shared Power requires a regular return to your collective values

Featured On The Show:

Mary Scott Boria is an educator, social worker, and organizer with 50 years of active experience fighting and working for racial and gender equity. She currently serves in various leadership roles for multiple social justice nonprofits and provides thoughtful, experienced mentorship to youth activists fighting for change. She’s served on the boards of many different nonprofit organizations, local and national. Mary is also a devoted mother and grandmother who delights in staying active with her family and crafting to explore and illustrate the social justice issues closest to her heart.

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Full Episode Transcript:

Mia Henry (00:00):

So, yeah, so welcome Mary Scott Ria. I'm so excited to be able to have a conversation with you. I love you so much as a friend and as a mentor. So this is truly an honor.

Mary Scott Boria (00:11):

Well, it's an honor for me too. I mean, the word honor sounds so official, right? So it's fun to be with you always when I'm with you. 'cause I love you so much and we have such a good time and you're such a good laugher. I love it when you laugh,

Mia Henry (00:26):

<laugh>. Alright, well I wanna start, um, just by asking you to let our listeners know and, and to remind me of who your people are, where you're from and Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that inform your walk in life.

Mary Scott Boria (00:40):

I guess my family is very key to who I am and what I've done in so, so many ways. Either because of what we've done together publicly, privately, but also very publicly and politically. And, you know, how they have sort of become a part of the things that I've been a part of. So I, I'll start with my family. I came to Chicago. I was born in Battle Creek, Michigan. We went to a very integrated school, but we lived in a pretty segregated neighborhood. And, and I would say that not as segregated as Chicago, but certainly segregated. So the issue of race was pretty clear in a, in many, many ways. I mean, as, as little kids, I mean, you don't necessarily understand race, but at a early age I did. And so that sort of opened a lot of my sort of eyes around issues, social issues, particularly race.

Mary Scott Boria (01:37):

And so we came to Chicago when I was a teenager and I lived in the best time of anyone's life. I grew up in the sixties, and it was the absolute best time for me and for others who felt like me. It was the best time to experience life. You know, people sort of criticize what happened in the sixties, but the sixties were always, always sort of mirrors for what's going on now in so many ways. So it's a wonderful to see young people experience this moment. It's not a wonderful moment. So I don't want to, uh, portray it as that. But it's wonderful to see young people pick up the baton and create their own baton. So for me, it was the sixties. And so, you know, we came to Chicago early on and my father and mother were divorced. My mother's white, my father's black.

Mary Scott Boria (02:39):

My mother came to Chicago, so we spent our time in Michigan with him. But one summer we came to Chicago and it happened to be the year that King was doing a lot of organizing in Chicago. And so she took us to that big rally at Soldier Field. And so that obviously as teenagers and you see all these people and, you know, there's so much passion you can't help but have but catch that spirit. And so, you know, we went back to Michigan, we took the Greyhound bus. My sister and I, we took the Greyhound bus back. We had a protest signs from Chicago. Um, and we went back to Michigan and young people were organizing the NAACP had its youth group and they were young people were organizing around things that were important to them. There were things like, the very first, the very first protest that I remember other than sort of being in Chicago was when I was in Battle Creed, black people could not get library cards.

Mary Scott Boria (03:38):

So when I was a little kid, we couldn't get a library card. And so I remember so vividly in my mind that protest line that we did to the library to make them give us library cards. And so that was the first time that I saw sort of this collective power where I saw passion, where I saw injustice. Um, you know, and I just saw people feeling such a desire to, to fight for something that seemed so minor is a library card, but later on when I got to be a little bit older, my babysitter's son was the head of the naacp. So we didn't really know what he was doing. And maybe we did and just didn't realize it. Oh, our, our only. So that kind of brought that early influence. And then coming to Chicago really at a, at a very important time in Chicago's and the Chicago and the world history, really were the formative hearts of, uh, what I would say created my community, so to speak, my tribe. And, uh, and my children just had to come along with me whenever I was doing something. You know, my youngest, my oldest daughter used to, uh, go with me when I, when I sold Black Panther newspapers. She, she would be in the stroller and I'd be strolling her up and down Madison selling Black Panther newspapers. And then my youngest daughter be on her roller skates, roller skating down the street when we were doing election, we were doing stuff for the elections. And so they've always had some role to play. Yeah,

Mia Henry (05:24):

Yeah. Did you mention now the NAACP as a child mentioning the Black Panther newspapers, you know, I know for sure how involved you were with the election app, Harold Washington. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. But I wanna back up a little bit because did your white mama take you to Soldier Field? Or how, how did you get to Soldier Field? Yes,

Mary Scott Boria (05:43):

My mother, you know, I grew up as a biracial child. Let me just give you a little context here. I grew up as a biracial child. I did not, no, I grew up as a black child and a biracial family. My mother and father, uh, my mother and father separated when I was about five or six years old. So I didn't experience my mother in my sort of consciousness, right? And so I always had this feeling of her. I didn't like her because I understood enough about race to know that, uh, we were kind of an outcast family, number one. And she was the cause of that. I never saw my dad as the cause of that. She was the cause of that, right? How did dare she be a white woman? Right? And so when she left my dad, and she left him because he was abusive, I didn't know that for many, many years.

Mary Scott Boria (06:38):

So I really kind of hated her quite honestly. And, um, and so I did everything I could. I, I even think that maybe to a certain extent, some of the social movements that I were involved in might have been a sense of, of being reactionary around, or at least being clear that I was black. I didn't want nobody to know. I had this white mother. I used to have a, I used to have a black woman when we first came to Chicago. And whenever the kids would tease me around race, I'd say, well, let me introduce you to my mother. And it was always the black woman that I would introduce him to. Oh

Mia Henry (07:14):

My goodness. That's like the reverse imitation of life, you know?

Mary Scott Boria (07:18):

Exactly. Totally. So I just, I, I rejected everything that I thought represented her. And so when I came, we came to Chicago, and at the same time, I yearned being with my mother. I, you know, I wanted a mother. And so we, my parents would kidnap us back and forth. And so we ended up in Chicago. And, um, I would say my earlier time in Chicago, I was rejecting her. I just didn't want anybody to know my mother was white. But the second time we came to Chicago, we actually, you know, we came here for the summer and, and she took us to this march. And that's when I began to see her in a very different light. And she was always, I mean, she comes from a family, her family, she grew up in Berea, Kentucky. And she comes from a family of, of political activists, white folks, hillbillies.

Mary Scott Boria (08:22):

Okay. They were down home hillbillies. And the more I do my genealogy and the more I find stories about her family, the more, uh, utterly impressed I am with her lineage and who she came from. And, uh, a couple of years ago, um, I was, uh, uh, I'm not sure how, oh, I was looking at genealogy. I was looking at the census, and I was looking for my mother's people. And, and I found this woman who, my mother, my mother's name was Mary Alice, and I found this woman named Mary Alice born in 1900. And I said, that's ridiculous. My mother was born in 1926. You know, ancestry.com is a fraud. You know, <laugh>, they make you pay for information that's not accurate. Right. And so I looked, and the more I looked, the more I realized this was my mother's aunt. But my mother never talked about her.

Mary Scott Boria (09:18):

And I think she didn't know her. I, 'cause she never said that she had four aunts. She said, I have three. And so when I dug through and I searched and I finally got to Facebook, and I finally got someone who was a relative of this woman and got in touch with her, and she said, yes, your mother and my father were cousins. And my mother's father's mother was the first postmaster in a place in Kentucky. My grandparents were got letters that they got from Franklin Roosevelt when he was running for mayor. I mean, they sent me copies. And what was impressive about that to me is these were white southern Democrats who hated Trump <laugh>.

Mia Henry (09:59):

You mean the ones you connected to now?

Mary Scott Boria (10:01):

Right. My family members. Oh. And, and I had always had in my mind that since my mother was from Kentucky, and actually her, she was raised in Berea. Her sister was raised in Corbin, Kentucky, and Corbin, Kentucky was a sundown town. And so I had always thought, wait a second, Uhhuh <affirmative>, my, is my people from a sundown town. Well, this aunt married a racist guy, but my mother's people were very progressive, very progressive, uh, Democrats. And so it gave me sort of a different lens to understand my mother and, and my mother came to Chicago the first time because her mother was single. Her mother was a widow, and my mother was a, was the youngest child, and she was a rebel teenager. And her mother sent her to Chicago to the Audi home. So she was, she was in the Audi home and

Mia Henry (10:59):

What's, what's the Audi home

Mary Scott Boria (11:00):

Now they call the juvenile detention center. So she was at the juvenile detention center and you know, and at that time as a kid, you could be put in the juvenile detention center, you know, well, they do the same thing now for not crimes, but just being a, you know, rebel teenager, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so that's uncontrollable. Exactly. And it's especially a girl. Oh my gosh, she's sexual <laugh>. So my mother, um, always sort of had that seed of rebelliousness. And so when I think when she came to Chicago, she actually was brought to Chicago by the aunt of Emmett Till, Emmett Till's aunt who lived out in where they Argo, Argo.

Mia Henry (11:42):

Oh yeah, Argo, right? That's where they're from. Mm-Hmm.

Mary Scott Boria (11:44):

<affirmative>. And they were in Three Rivers, Michigan. And I think that's where my mother went when she left my dad. And then they brought her to Chicago. So that's how she got to Chicago. That was after Emmett Till had been killed. Yeah. But it was not very, it was a couple of years. It was not a lot of time, but she never talked to us about it. So I just had this sense that, you know, she grew up and I, I only sort of discovered that recently as I started digging through a little bit of her history. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So that's how she was much more sort of a rebel than my dad was. My dad was a bourgeois negro <laugh> <laugh>. And though he was aware, you know, he just was a working man, you know, he wasn't really into sort of what the issues in the world were, but my mother was very much interested in those issues. So she had a, a really strong impact on me, you

Mia Henry (12:41):

Know? That's fascinating. Yeah.

Mary Scott Boria (12:43):

Yeah.

Mia Henry (12:43):

The con more conservative black father and Right. And the left wing. Right. White mama <laugh>.

Mary Scott Boria (12:50):

You know, my father was so funny. He was still calling us Negroes even in the two thousands, you know, he was still seeing Negroes. He hadn't, he hadn't elevated out of the Negro, uh, era. <laugh>.

Mia Henry (13:04):

Oh, there's so much more, I wanna say <laugh> talk to you about. We'll, we'll talk more about this. Yeah. Uh, going on. So you, gen

Mary Scott Boria (13:12):

Genealogy is fun. <laugh>. Yeah.

Mia Henry (13:14):

Yeah. And I, it sounds like as a, as a young person coming back that second time and staying with your mother, you began to have a different relationship with her. 'cause you were starting to learn more about she was as a person, right. Just as a race. Right. Right. Exactly. Um, yeah, exactly. And so, so yeah, tell me more about the, I mentioned it earlier about the organizations you've been a part of. You've been part of so many, not just organ movements. Right. And you've been able to connect to movements through both, you know, grassroots organizing work as well as organizations, collectives, right. Nonprofits, collectives that became nonprofits. I know all these things. So, <laugh>. So, um, tell us a little bit about some of the campaigns and organizations that, you know, really shaped you.

Mary Scott Boria (14:06):

Right. So I would say the foundational stuff in many ways came from the, came from the Black Panther Party. And while I felt like I had a, a kind of a marginal role in the party, in the sense that people always say, oh, you are in the Black Panther party. Oh, what did you do? I sold newspapers, <laugh>, I served at the Breakfast program. I was not in any way, shape or form in leadership, but it was the first time I sort of got that experience of the collective and sort of the collective learning together, organizing together, sometimes even living together, that it just, it happened at a time when I needed to have that influence in my life. I was a teen mother. My oldest daughter was born when I was 17. I graduated from high school. There's, I went to Malcolm X, which was then Crane College.

Mary Scott Boria (15:06):

And that was a place where there was so much organizing happening of all the colleges in the city. Crane was the place to be. It, it just had the leaders of the Black Panther party. It had a strong black student union. You know, we were on the west side of Chicago on the heels of King, and that's where I sort of was introduced to the Black Panther party. They were there. They had, you know, we had a little corner in the high school. You know, we were in the building where the high school was, and we had a little corner in that building. So it made it possible for us to organize because we didn't have nowhere else to go. You know, we had to show up in that little lounge that we had. So, you know, it sort of led me to, um, the Black Panther party.

Mary Scott Boria (15:53):

And that was a good experience. I also was a young mother, and I had a baby, so I had to navigate sort of family life, uh, raising a child as a single woman, getting outta high school, getting into college, trying to work. I had a lot on my plate. But the, I was, I, I felt like the Panthers sort of nurtured, nurtured that part of me. And so it felt like I could bring my child into that space because it was supportive of her being in that space. But as years went by and the Panthers sort of melted down because of the murder of Fred Hampton, you know, I went on to school and I would say I got involved kind of in the women's movement. And I'm not quite sure what the first, what sort of led me there. And, and it might've been that I got invited to a conference in Yellow Springs, Ohio, and it was a feminist conference.

Mary Scott Boria (16:49):

And I met a lot of women, and especially a lot of women from Chicago. And the group that I was very much impressed with was Moez Latinas in Axion. And at that time, I don't even know if they were considered organization, but they began kind of as a movement around women's issues. But the one that I was particularly interested in was the issue of sterilization. And so they were really focused on the sterilization of Puerto Rican women, even though they were Mexican there, that was an issue that sort of galvanized their passion. And so I got kind of involved in that. And that, you know, was a segue in many ways to the work I was doing. So I ended up being a social worker and doing, uh, abortion counseling at a local hospital on the west side of Chicago. So that got me more involved in women's issues and reproductive health and, and health issues.

Mary Scott Boria (17:50):

And so I kind of saw both sides of both of those issues. So, you know, while I was counseling women who were ready to have interested in having, wanting to have an abortion with doctors who abused that passion and took advantage of particularly poor women who wanted to have abortions. And so in lots of ways, it was a double-edged sword. And the white women who were fighting around abortion issues didn't sort of have at the front of their agenda, the need to check what was happening to black women. You know, while we were advocating for abortion, which I would not have thought we shouldn't have, right. But there was this element of black women that was not in the lens of white women. They weren't paying attention to sort of what was happening to black women. And, um, I was juggling that. And you know, what's interesting right now is my granddaughter, who will remain nameless for obvious reasons, is a reproductive rights counselor in a name, in a state that we will, that will remain nameless <laugh>. And that's her first job. You know? So sort of that influence just kind of carried on to my granddaughter. Go ahead.

Mia Henry (19:12):

Yeah. Well, what I know, I mean, you said the state will rename nameless, right? But is it a state that is protecting reproductive rights or

Mary Scott Boria (19:22):

No, restricting.

Mia Henry (19:23):

Restricting.

Mary Scott Boria (19:24):

Right.

Mia Henry (19:25):

So that's,

Mary Scott Boria (19:26):

And that's dangerous. I mean, you know, there's, there's still concerns about, sorry, there's still concern about safety and the, you know, the legal ramifications. And so for hers, you know, she has to be, remain sort of anonymous, but she's working and, you

Mia Henry (19:43):

Know, and these conditions are, are dangerous. And this is, you know, it's March, 2024. Right. So we know that, you

Mary Scott Boria (19:50):

Know. Exactly. Exactly.

Mia Henry (19:52):

And yeah,

Mary Scott Boria (19:53):

So it's, while I'm proud of her, on the one hand, I'm also, you know, watching what's happening in the country and paying attention to what's happening around reproductive rights for lots of reasons. But anyway, that sort of led me to be involved in reproductive, the reproductive rights. And then the sexual assault counseling that I did sort of led me to be more involved and, and aware of issues. Now, I was raped at 16, but I never sort of thought of myself as a rape victim. You know, I just, I don't know why. And it was when I became involved in the sexual assault movement that I sort of came to consciousness about that. Yes. And felt a lot more passionate. But I also felt like there was a void in the leadership of black women in the sexual assault movement. And so the movement, the work was articulated publicly as an issue.

Mary Scott Boria (20:53):

White women were organizing around or were, had a history of being victims of, or whatever. And there wasn't a voice or a place that was sort of made for women of color. And so there was lots of women who were, lots of women of color around the country who were involved in this issue. And so, but not none in, in real leadership. So, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, we developed, this came before me. They developed a, a black women's caucus, I guess you would say, in these national organizations out of which many African American women came out of as leaders. And actually the first black female mayor of, uh, Minneapolis was, uh, the first black leader of the National Coalition Against Sexual Assault. So that, you know, these women came out of these places. I got then involved with women and political issues, even though I had some involvement with political issues before.

Mary Scott Boria (21:50):

When I say political issues, I mean electoral issues. And so that kind of led me to having more of a involvement in the, in the Cook County Democratic Women, which was a coalition of women from around the city. A good many of them were out of, I came out of Harold Washington's organization because it, it formed pretty much after his first election. So many of the women who organized this organization came out of that movement. So there were people like Jackie Grimshaw and Marilyn Katz, and, uh, Katie Hogan, and just a lot of political organizers. And so it was a pretty powerful women's organization. 20, Tina Chin, who was Michelle Obama's chief of staff, um, was a member of this organization. So these, this was a pretty powerful organization at a time when women's issues were really, uh, at the forefront. And so a lot of women were elected, Jan Shikowsky, all of these women were a part of this organization.

Mary Scott Boria (22:53):

So I, from Harold Washington to Cook County Democratic Women, I got my feet really wet in electoral politics, which, like ea I did not like electoral politics. I, you know, I grew up in Chicago, you know, my formative years in Chicago, and it was always patronage and corruption. So I didn't have no need to be interested in local politics until, until Harold Washington ran for mayor, you know, that then just galvanized sort of this realization that we could have power in the city. And so many of the organizations I was involved with were coalitions, and they were coalitions of like-minded groups, but different experience groups. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So there were the south side politicians and the north side politicians, and then the Latino politicians. And what's so beautiful is that, you know, they planted the seeds for what's happening now. Yeah. Good and bad, but in many ways good. Because we wouldn't have these millions and millions of people around the world protesting around Palestine if we hadn't built some of those relationships on the ground. Yeah. And so that just, and now social media is a big, big, huge part of that. But you don't just form a movement with social media. You know, I was listening to one of your other commentators who did media, it's a powerful, powerful, powerful tool. But you have to put relationships at the forefront.

Mia Henry (24:31):

Yeah. Right.

Mary Scott Boria (24:32):

People have to trust each other, know each other, work together. And so by the time the Harold Washington movement came along, a lot of that had happened in Chicago because of, you know, the Chicago Freedom Movement, a lot of stuff that had union organizing. I mean, this city is so beautiful, so rich with organizers, you know, and organizations that there was lots of opportunity to have those experiences and learn various aspects of politics and movement building and not-for-profit word. I mean, I feel like I've been fortunate in the sense that I've never really applied for a job, that I've always bounced from one place to another place, into another place, into another place. And that's, I think that has a lot to do with, I had lots of relationships and I wasn't ever really at the forefront of most of them. I mean, Chicago sexual assault, I was the director there, but I'm much more comfortable in the background. And it was always in the background. But I see now in hindsight, the various ways in which I've navigated relationships and built relationships have kind of been the backbone in many ways of anything that I've been able to do. Yeah. And, you know, a broad base of, you know, relationships.

Mia Henry (25:56):

Yes. And I, I don't think you're doing it, but I wanna make sure you do not discount <laugh> your, your role, um, because you put relationships first because you've been able to see the connections, you know. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> between all of these things. Right. And pay attention. I remember years ago, Mary, you told me part of being an activist is just being in the room.

Mary Scott Boria (26:18):

Right, right.

Mia Henry (26:19):

And being willing to work <laugh>. Right, right. And, and that's so much of what you've done if we truly believe in leaderful movements. Right, right. And of, of course, that that ethos in, uh, inspires my shared power framework, right? Yeah. Yeah. That you being part of, of the work, answering the call to build both organizations and be part of, of collectives and put relationships. First

Mary Scott Boria (26:45):

Is leadership. Yeah. I mean, if you don't have that, you don't have movements, because you really do have to have people who have passion, who have work ethic, you know, who don't have an ego, you know, and who has skills. And it, and I think it's really important that, you know, sometimes you always think that it's hard to get in that room. You know, it's like, I don't know how to get in that room. You know, you have to have a special pass or privilege to get in that room. It's not that hard. I mean, obviously there are places you can't get into, but for the most part, you can get into places where you can develop these relationships and these skills and these opportunities. And you just have to believe that, first of all, you have to believe that you can, and then you have to sort of do the work to sort of get there.

Mary Scott Boria (27:40):

But I realized in doing specifically, I think the work around the Harold Washington, you know, there's plenty of work for people to do, and there's plenty opportunities for people to be involved in these organizations. And the door just, you know, has to be a little open, but you can push it open. And so I, I just feel like I've been pushed from one thing to the next, and I'm so happy to have had the opportunity to have. And there's been conflicts, you know, I mean, I can remember there's one question you asked, uh, and I think you're asking about a challenge. And there was one time I was very much involved at the time with Cook County Democratic Women, and I was in leadership. And so we had candidates forums, and we would invite mayoral candidates, state and local candidates to these endorsement sessions of for women.

Mary Scott Boria (28:32):

Right. And many politicians over the years have won their elections because they get this endorsement. So this one year, I don't even know, I don't know if you were in Chicago at that time, this one year, Eugene Penham was running for mayor. Were you here then? Do you remember that? I don't think so. Eugene Penham was a judge, but he was also a very civil rights backed judge. Right. But in the women's community, in the sexual assault community, he had the reputation of letting black men off easy for rape. Okay. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So here you have a civil rights icon. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in Chicago. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And you have women's groups saying that he's not supporting victims, that he's supporting black men. You've got these two sort of polar positions coming together as conversation, discussion, and debate at this forum that this man was coming to present for.

Mary Scott Boria (29:31):

So all of these white women were lobbying everybody to vote against him because of his position around rape. My guts were killing me. Yeah. I was like, I don't know what his court rulings are, record, but I do know, I do feel that he is defending oftentimes innocent black men, that this is, this is how this issue is divided. Okay. This is how racially this issue is divided. And inside, I said, no, I'm not gonna let them. I'm not gonna let them blackball him. I, I'm not, I can't let them, but I'm, I'm an introvert. I'm so shy, I don't speak up. I'm sure everybody feels it, that when you got something to say and your body is killing you if you say it, but you're so scared, you know, I don't know if it's gonna come out right or what. And I, it just, it got to the point where I said, I have to say something.

Mary Scott Boria (30:34):

So I stood up. I never said anything in this group. I mean, there were hundreds of women there, public thing, the media were always there, and they had newspaper articles out about this judge two or three days before. And I was. And so I stood up at this meeting and I spoke out, and I said, I've listened to all your voices around this judge. I don't think you have any evidence. I don't think you have any data. I don't think you have anything. Plus you haven't listened to the voices of black women around these issues. Right. So it was a moment for me that I was like, scared to death. I was afraid I was gonna get run out of there. People loved it. It broke the issue wide open. Yeah. Yeah. And as a result of that, there was like, the ability to understand each other's issues began to happen.

Mary Scott Boria (31:27):

Yeah. And even though it was a struggle, and it was a fight, and I'm sure that people's principles were challenged, but it was like, that's the moment where I think it really sort of said, and we need to stop playing with each other. We need to kind of be real around these issues. And so, I mean, that to me, sort of, you know, learning to lobby, learning electoral politics, you know, that, you know, there's a, there's a skill to that. And it's, it's scientific in lots of ways. <laugh>, you know, it's relational, but it's also mechanical.

Mia Henry (31:58):

It's well strategic. Right. And strategic. And what you just described to me, you, what you brought was an intersectional lens Right. To the issue Right. Before people had the terminology. Right. <laugh>. Right, exactly. Intersectionality. That's what you were doing. Right. Right. Um, and then, and so I so appreciate you sharing too, how how scary it is

Mary Scott Boria (32:20):

Yeah. Yeah.

Mia Henry (32:21):

To do what, you know, needs to be done. Especially if it's not our normal way of showing up in spaces. Right. But I'm s often, um, telling myself first and others that we have to be courageous in the work. Yeah. And courage is not, not being afraid. Right.

Mary Scott Boria (32:38):

Right.

Mia Henry (32:38):

Doing things when we're afraid. Right. Exactly. Even though we're afraid.

Mary Scott Boria (32:41):

Right. You know? Right. And, you know, I feel like everything that I've done, I've been afraid. And there's been a lot of things I've been afraid of. I can count each one of them as a learning experience. And I say, phew, I made it through that <laugh>. But, and, but I'm able to look back and think about, okay, you know, what was a bullet that I dodged and, and how did I dodge it? You know, so you're right. I mean, I'm not a risky person and I'm, I don't take a lot of risks, but then when I do, it's like, wow, they're, they're memorable for me. Yeah.

Mia Henry (33:15):

They're memorable. And because you operate with this moral compass, Mary. Yeah. Everyone is better off when you are in the room.

Mary Scott Boria (33:24):

Mia Henry (33:27):

In the context, right, of building movements for change. You've heard me talk about shared power a bit, but what does shared power look like for you? Have you seen it at work in any moment?

Mary Scott Boria (33:41):

To me, shared power is kind of like a evolving process. And that there are you, you know, you sort of have a vision or piece of a vision of what shared power could look like. I mean, you know, we're always building what it looks like. You think you got it and then it's like, oops, that wasn't it. And then you have to sort of do it again. So I think it's kind of an evolving sort of process. It's sort of like, how have you thought about power? You know, have you ever sort of thought about it? Have you ever thought about, and in what ways have you thought about it? 'cause you might have thought about it and didn't realize it was sort of power that you were thinking about. Right. So I feel like it's evolving and I feel like we have failures and then we have victories, and then sometimes we have little victories and we have big failures, or we have big victories and little failures.

Mary Scott Boria (34:35):

And so all of that is, you should anticipate that. 'cause that's what you're gonna have. And then you sort of get to a place where you sort of get your first kind of taste of power, where you have, oh, you feel a sense of freedom. You know, you feel a sense of your own agency. You know, you feel that you have the values, that you have things that you think are important to involve yourself in whatever process. And if that is a sense of justice and fairness, then you want to sort of create a way where those people that are engaged in this with you feel connected to what you're doing, to what they're doing, what y'all doing together. And that there's equity and fairness. Right. But you also understand on the other hand, that you have obligations and responsibilities, and you have to figure out how do you navigate all of that so that you are authentic in how you deal with both of those sort of pressures.

Mary Scott Boria (35:33):

Right. Around how you have power, how you access power. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, how you share power. So when I was working at youth service project, and I was working with one of your former bosses, and we worked in an environment where I was the associate director, and I had a very dictatorial boss, but she trusted me to a certain extent, but she never trusted the staff. And so she was always trying to manipulate the staff, and she was trying to get me to manipulate the staff. And I think there were times when I manipulated the staff, but I wasn't evil intended. And I developed relationships with all of the staff. I don't think there were any staff that, there were some that probably didn't like me. But, you know, out of a staff of a of 50, I think I had a good reputation with the staff because I was interested in them.

Mary Scott Boria (36:25):

I cared about what their work was, I saw where she was unfair oftentimes. And I saw ways that I could use my position to open opportunities for the staff, or give staff the time and the space to exercise their own agency. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in their work. Right. And I remember one year we had a staff retreat. We took the whole week off and had a retreat and we had it there in our office. And my boss was out of town. So she wasn't at the retreat. She was never present with the staff. Interesting. She was never, you had a staff retreat without the executive director. And so of course, what did the staff do that every opportunity they had to complain about her and the organization, they took that opportunity. And so I was there facilitating, and there were, I mean, I wasn't the facilitator, but I was in charge of the retreat.

Mary Scott Boria (37:17):

And then there were people who facilitated the conversations. And so one of the conversations, they created demands, and one of the demands they created is that they wanted to be able to meet with her and have maybe a, some of the staff meet with some of the board members. Right. And of course, when she found out that that's what we did at this retreat, <laugh>, that we created a list of demands, then she was really. And she started taking out things on people such as, who was organizing that, well, we're gonna fire them, or Why was this person doing that? Or we're gonna move them. And there were two smart people on the staff, maybe three parts, people on the staff, all of whom were staff members of mine, but all who had, I had excellent relationships with, they organized a union <laugh>. And I knew about it because they came to me immediately and said, we're organizing a union, and you know, we want you to not say anything.

Mary Scott Boria (38:16):

Of course, I wasn't gonna say anything. So they organized a union, and of course that was my time out the door because I had to resign and my boss was really ready for me to go. She didn't know that I was behind it or that I had any knowledge of it. Uhhuh, <affirmative>, she didn't know that. But she was unhappy that I was not interested in punishing staff for wanting to organize unions. Right. So it was really under supporting their power and supporting them, taking, taking action. Now, I might have been, if I was in, you know, the executive director, I might have been oppositional to them starting a union. But I do think that it was important that I was in that middle position and I had to figure out how to use my power in both of those places. So you have to be willing to open yourselves up for allowing the voice of people that you're working with.

Mary Scott Boria (39:05):

You have to, you know, realize it's gonna be hard. Sometimes I can say a whole lot, I don't wanna keep <laugh>, but I think it's your situations and you learn from the places that you failed. And hopefully you have enough, strengthen yourself to sort of learn from it and say, okay, this is knocked me down, but let's see if we can mo move forward. And it's hard. I've had situations where the whole, I worked in an organization, the whole staff hated me, <laugh>. And, and I thought I was righteous and <laugh>, you know, and to me it was, I shouldn't say all them hated me because some of them are still my good friends. But there's this sense that you have to figure out what is the greater good and operate from a place of some values, having some values. And of course, I'm not gonna say my values are better than your values, but I have a right to have my values.

Mary Scott Boria (39:56):

And so I think you open yourself up to those interactions with the people you're interested in, and you learn from them and they learn from you, and you trust them a little bit more. They trust you a little bit more. And you realize that when we're working together, when we're really working together, we're clicking. That's the best source of power. When you see everybody who's engaged and they're, and they're engaged in whatever way they feel capable of being engaged. And you open that door now and not-for-profits is really hard. 'cause you plan to two bosses, you're playing to the board and the funders and you know, you're playing to staff and you have to figure out how to navigate. And that's where it's important for you to understand what is your power and how do you, how do you get it? And then how do you make sure that you involve other people in a way that lifts them up as opposed to marginalize them margin.

Mary Scott Boria (40:55):

It's hard sometimes when you're, when you're working in an organization, you know how hard it is to bring staff to a point. So you, you're constantly, you know, navigating that mood and trying to figure out how to, how to accommodate that mood while at the same time addressing the demands that you're getting on the other side. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But I think as much as you can allow, you can let people know what your pressures are and sort of create some spaces for some communication. You know, it's hard and it's gonna always be hard, but you're training people, you're teaching people, you're encouraging their development. And these are spaces where they have a a right to be. And sometimes you have to decide when it's appropriate.

Mia Henry (41:39):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. I think certainly in hearing you talk, especially towards the end there about in nonprofit, how difficult it can be because you have the two bosses and, and it was the, I feel like you have 5, 6, 7 bosses <laugh> when you're running. And that's why I always liked tend to like places with small staff because you know, the bigger the staff gets, the less control you feel over. Right. That you feel like you can have over having people have those shared values. Right. Right. That so necessary. Right. And also, so you have the board, you have the funders, you have the staff. And then for me, I got into the work for the people we serve <laugh>.

Mary Scott Boria (42:18):

Right. Right. Exactly. I'm

Mia Henry (42:19):

Like, where are they? When do I get a chance to hang out with them? When do I get a chance to talk to them? You know, all of these other on demands on our time can really make us often feel powerless Right. In, in roles that have positional power, you know? Right, right. So even what you said earlier about learning about our own relationships, relationship with power and experiences of it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, what I find in talking to people is most people feel like they don't have power. Right. In most situations. Doesn't matter if they're director or staff or a board member or even the funder, you know, they're just like, oh, well there's only so much we can do. You know, everyone is coming from that place. Right. Right. Versus the place of possibility, you know? Right, right. But what does it mean to be able to have conversations and, and even position ourselves in a places of possibility and what win-win looks like. Right. You know? Right. Right. Everybody up, nobody down. Right. <laugh>. Right. A kaba said that to me a long time ago. Okay. I always remember that. What does that look like in every situation? We're creating your policies and we're creating new programs, and we're figuring out how to run meetings. Right.

Mia Henry (43:23):

Right. What does that look like? And it takes a lot of work

Mary Scott Boria (43:27):

Yeah. <laugh>

Mia Henry (43:28):

For, for that, for that to happen. But that's, I do think shared power requires that work and it requires constantly reminding ourselves Right. Of what is possible. Not what we can't do, but what what we can do, you know? Right. To

Mary Scott Boria (43:41):

Get, and you know, it's, it's so interesting that sometimes, you know, I experience younger people who are maybe just getting outta college or whatever, and they are academically prepared for the world, but they're not necessarily socially prepared for the world, but they wanna tackle these big issues. And then even kids who don't have the advantages of a, an academic credential, young people just have this desire to sort of like jump to the top real fast. You know, I wanna, like, I have so many ideas and I think we sometimes react to them in a way that puts them off, we don't have time, we're too busy, we're this, this, this, and all of that is so true. But you have to be willing to mentor and support that energy. And I think the challenge, the, the conflict often comes when you don't put in the time to really recognize how to support their growing leadership. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so it's a lot of work. I think I've probably told Brian this and maybe I told you that even when you have a board, sometimes you have to treat, especially if you're executive director, you have to treat that board like it's a program that you're running. You have to give people time, you have to give them your time. If they, if you don't, they'll sabotage you <laugh>. Yeah. You

Mia Henry (45:07):

Know, like the director you described before. Right. Then they come to their own staff retreat.

Mary Scott Boria (45:11):

Right. Right. And so, you know, you've gotta put that time in. You've gotta figure out how to nurture those relationships. You've gotta figure out how to sort of transmit some skills or some perspectives or to, or to receive that, um, experience of young people. It's so organic, <laugh>, it's so hard sometimes. How do you bottle that up? And I would say the only way you can bottle it up is you gotta be open enough to be in relationship with people. And when you are a shy person, and I'm a real shy person, you take me to a party and I'm gonna find a corner real fast. And I don't have small talk etiquette and I'm just in my head and I'm not usually out in, you know, public. And so you have to sort of practice sometimes those things that you're weak at. Hmm. And make them strengths, or at least figure out how they can become strengths when they're really things that devastate you or make things hard for you. And now we need those relationships more and more than we ever did 'cause we're losing them. Yeah. You know? Yeah. We're, we're losing and the pandemic and technology and crime and everything else is making it harder for us to have those kinds of relationships. But however you have 'em, they're important.

Mia Henry (46:26):

Yeah. Oh, Mary, this has been so wonderful. I can't wait until our part two. I wanna talk about, you know, how we met and, and all work together. And you've already started talking about it, but what you see are the ingredients for us to build more spaces for shared power moving forward given all of the rich experience you've had. Yeah. In many, many rooms.

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