Season 2, Ep. 4: Exploring Shared Leadership Models with Anisha Desai
How does shared power translate to shared leadership in organizations and movements? What’s required to create or maintain a “shared leadership model”? Does every organization rooted in justice & equity require this?
In this episode, I introduce Anisha Desai of the worker-owned co-op AORTA to answer all these questions (and more!)
We discuss her background in movement work, what questions to ask if you work within a shared leadership role, and people-oriented structures that allow for shared leadership… and followship.
Listen in to hear Anisha’s thoughtful voice on a topic a lot of us are curious about, but know very little.
Listen to the Full Episode
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
[10:28] Anisha’s background: Who are your people? Where did you begin?
[15:30] What should we think about when we begin to implement a Shared Leadership model?
[20:51] How does a board launch or shift an organization toward Shared Leadership?
[24:13] How can an organization work to maintain a Shared Leadership model?
[32:40] What happens when one leader is ready to leave… and the other is not?
[38:40] Anisha’s advice for organizations who have (or want to have) a Shared Leadership model
[45:03] Anisha’s leadership logic: I want to be at ease in how I move between leadership and followership
Featured On The Show:
Anisha Desai (she/her) has worked in organizations dedicated to movement support, educational equity, and leadership development for two decades. She is a facilitator, strategist, coach, and worker-owner at AORTA (Anti-Oppression Resource and Training Alliance).
Prior to AORTA, she served as Director of the New Leaders Initiative and Brower Youth Awards at Earth Island Institute in Berkeley, where she identified, honored and coached emerging youth environmental movement leaders. Anisha approaches her work with a tenderness that comes from experiencing the often-rough edges of hierarchical nonprofit leadership structures. She knows the gifts of pain, insight and metamorphosis that come with failing fabulously.
Anisha is of Sri Lankan and Indian descent, raised with class privilege by two loving-hearted psychiatrist parents and a devoutly religious grandmother in a smallish town in Florida. She currently makes her home in the Bay Area and Florida. You can read more about Anisha on her AORTA bio page.
Additional Resources:
Learn more about Tidelines: A coaching cohort for shared leadership
Learn more about New Seneca Village: a restorative residency experience for leaders and healers
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Full Episode Transcript:
Mia (00:08):
Welcome back to the Shared Power Podcast. I'm your host, Mia Henry. I'm the CEO of Freedom Lifted, and the daughter of activists and educators, entrepreneurs and survivors.
Mia (00:22):
I've had the honor of teaching, facilitating, and co-leading in nonprofits and schools for over two decades. I've learned a lot, but it hasn't always been easy. There are conversations that I had or I wish I had that create the conditions for more effective collective leadership. I'm so excited to offer a few bonus episodes with new guests and more conversations about sharing power within nonprofit organizations and social justice movements. Today, you'll hear about a topic I get asked about a lot, given the name of this show and the focus of my work share leadership models and organizations rooted in equity. And one of the best people I know to speak on this topic is Anisha Desai. Anisha has worked for over two decades in organizations dedicated to capacity building for movements, educational equity, and leadership development. She's a facilitator, a strategist, and a worker owner at Aorta Anti-Oppression Resource and Training Alliance.
Mia (01:21):
Now at Aorta, Anisha leads the Tide Lines program, which builds capacity for shared leadership teams using a cohort model and facilitated dialogues when she goes to work. Anisha brings a passion for creating cultures that value democratic participation, creativity, and connection. In this conversation, Anisha and I discuss her background in movement work. We also talk about what questions to ask if you're working in a shared leadership role, and how to set up a people oriented structure at your organization that allows not only for shared leadership, but also followship. Now, I chased Anisha Round for several months just to try to meet her and get her on this show. So I'm super excited to share with you my conversation with the lovely Anisha Desai. Oh, I am so excited today to welcome Anisha Desai to the Shared Power Podcast. Woo. <laugh>. I have been wanting, truly been stalking Anisha just a little bit like in the, in the friendly, you know, I know people you know. Can you ask Anisha <laugh>? She would be interested in talking to me way, um, for like a year, ever since I, I learned of your work through Aorta and heading up the Tide Lines coaching cohort for people who are adopting shared leadership models. So, welcome Anisha to the Share Power Podcast.
Anisha (02:42):
Hey, thank you so, so, so much. And the stocking is mutual. <laugh>. We love you at Aorta, and I have followed your work and your podcast for some time, so it's just really like a thrill.
Mia (02:57):
Thank you. Oh, wow. Well, this is gonna be great. We've already taught since we met. We became Fast friends, <laugh>, and I'm not gonna let you go, you know, after this podcast though. Just know that. Thank you. So, yeah, and this conversation, I was like, you know, the work that you are doing supporting people who are adopting shared leadership is right in line with the Shared Power podcast. For sure. A lot of people come to me and Freedom Lifted looking for support around this because I've been a co-director a couple of times, or been a co-director or co co-leadership structures a couple of times in organizations. That meant a lot to me, right? This is often why people do want to <laugh>, you know, think about leadership in a different way in the places that that mean a lot to them personally. And they also mean a lot to the world, right?
Mia (03:47):
These organizations are advancing justice, they're supporting social movements, or they're part of leading social movements, right? These are the folks who are, have been thinking about and, and, um, bringing in shared leadership models for years now, right? It's not a, it's not a new thing, but there's still a lot of people new to it, right? Or considering it. So I think this is gonna be a wonderful conversation with you, having had an opportunity to work with so many different, different people around this model. Now, you know, that my shared power, you know, I have this working definition, right? Of shared power for Freedom Lifted, and it comes out of, um, an in-depth discussion. I, I do with folks that we work with around what is power, right? Not how it's used, <laugh> not how we feel when we have it, and not even how we gain it, but what is power, right?
Mia (04:41):
What do we have when we have social power? What gives us what the dictionary says the ability to do? And our working definition of it is, you know, shared power with people are adopting a shared power model. They have an ongoing intentional and concerted effort to ensure that everyone in a community, regardless of identity, and especially those with historically oppressed identities, right, have access to needed resources, are seen and recognized as inherently valuable and for making contributions, right? They get credit for the work that they do, but we're valuable regardless of what work we do, that everyone has voice in the decision making that affects them. It may not always go at everyone's way <laugh>, but they have input, right? And they're able to make choices about their lives and their bodies. We're making an efforts to make sure everyone has that. And of course, we wanna make sure that everyone is physically and psychologically safe, and we don't equate power with dominance, right?
Mia (05:40):
We see power as abundant dominance is scarce. And so making sure that we are thinking about power not in this, in this way, that it's dirty or it's a problem. You know, being afraid of it, feeling like we shouldn't have it or don't want it because we know how it's been used against us, but really thinking about what is, what is power and how can we use power to bring more power to people? That's right. So, given that definition that we have, how did you move into supporting co-directors and shared leadership models at Aorta? And maybe even if you were doing it before that.
Anisha (06:14):
Yeah, I think about how is it that I did come to support folks in shared leadership, and that is just a big question that has like so many possible answers, <laugh>. Um, but I could, I can channel a few of them. I, myself have never been in shared leadership. I've never been in a co-director ship. I've never been in a shared leadership team. I've been an executive director. I've been an executive director that has like, attempted things, probably pretty opaquely to like, Hey, we're gonna do this. We're gonna share some, you know, power without really rooting in, um, such a like clear, crisp and liberatory definition of power that you just expressed. But I think, like I originally came to the work with a lot of heartache and kind of like tending to my own heartache and what seemed like, gosh, like what a, what a failure of my own leadership and my own executive director work, right?
Anisha (07:19):
And thinking like, is this the, is this the summation of what was possible? I kind of like climbed up the things and did the, did the things that I was supposed to, I thought, and then like, really had a pretty lonely experience, pretty hard experience, lots of mistakes made, and was kind of like in a healing process from that. And ended up, I think, hearing from a lot of people, a lot of clients at aorta that were trying on some different things that were like really struggling under the weight of being the only executive director and all the other sort of things that come with that. So I think I began little by little inching closer, um, to these groups that were saying that they wanted to try on shared leadership or co directorship. Um, and just asking them like, what does that mean to you? And what are you doing? So I never sort of like started out by learning like a shared leadership model or kind of like getting into the, like nuts and bolts of what makes shared leadership go. It really kind of started from more of like a heart centered place, which I think ultimately I've come back around to is like, oh, that's, that, that was maybe a good instinct.
Mia (08:44):
I love hearing you express that because I, I do hear that from others too. You know, there are different ways people come to start contemplating, you know, shared leadership. And oftentimes it is from heartbreak. It's seeing how it hasn't worked, trying to do it alone, or thinking about, uh, leadership in an individualistic way, <laugh>, right? And taking that thinking of in, of leadership as an, an individualistic way and translating it to a structure that becomes very, um, yeah, very just capitalistic and, and hard to say, but, you know, it is all about just like individuals kind of striving, right? And that, and that people are, will come into particularly nonprofit organizations that I have a lot of experience in thinking they want to be an executive director, right? <laugh> not necessarily saying, I wanna be a leader, right? I wanna strengthen my leadership, which can happen in with multiple roles and titles and all these things, right?
Mia (09:51):
But very much into this, this title of executive director that, um, takes on so much and then surprise, surprise, it's lonely. It's hard. Um, simply because everyone sees it as an individual effort, right? As the, um, seeing an ed as the, the what, the encapsulation encapsulation of an individual effort to lead an organization and not a shared one. So, thank you. Yeah. For that honesty around heartbreak, right? Being a being an impetus. Backing up a little bit though. Tell me who are your people, you know, where are you, where do you call home? And then what are the campaigns and organizations that you've been a part of that also because of what they were striving for really influence your work today?
Anisha (10:41):
Yeah. My people, my people are compassionate, loving people that go hard for their families and their, their kin. And I have like always found myself going hard for my kin <laugh>, and it's like, um, that doesn't take a break. And, and so my people grow through that process. And I'm based in the Bay Area in California, and also based in Florida where I grew up and spent a good part of my childhood. So I really divide my time between loving up the people in, in both of those places. I come from like a, a community of sort of, uh, people who moved through the nonprofit sector in the nineties and the two thousands, and like sometimes chose what was there because that was the, like, best that was available, right? So it's like I really like, recognize myself in so many other people who are like of my age and have kind of moved through and been like, yeah, I just was trying to find a thing in a place where I belonged for a little while.
Anisha (12:00):
Right? And some of that work has been economic justice work. Some of that has been teaching in a classroom and educators and working with high school students who are also my people, <laugh>. And some of that has come from like really kind of like making and remaking myself and thinking a lot about change. And so I surround myself with people who are constantly thinking about change and how it happens. It's something that like, deeply engages me. It's something that, like, through coaching work, for instance, I spend a lot of time coaching and a lot of time in coaching community. And it's like a, it's a place where it's so close to like, what, what really makes people alive? And that's where I find like the most sort of spark and aliveness. It doesn't like deplete me. It makes me, makes me alive. Um, you know, over the past couple of years I've worked really closely with a couple of things outside of aorta. I've worked, uh, on the new Seneca Village project, which is just a beautiful restorative space that is being co-created by black and brown femmes. And it's a space that will be kind of a longtime long-term plan for a land and a space of restoration, and also kind of like short term residencies that are offered for folks to, to restore and replenish. And that's been just a, a beautiful place to, to connect.
Mia (13:35):
That is wonderful. That is wonderful. I didn't know about New Seneca Village. Where is it?
Anisha (13:40):
It's, it's everywhere right now. Okay. Uhhuh. Um, and they've been doing residencies in California and on the east coast, I think in Tennessee, um, out in Woodby Island. And so right now they're just partnering with different, um, different retreat centers and spaces. And the hope is to have a more permanent space where folks can just come and, and be,
Mia (14:02):
Ah, I love it. So, and that's, you know, the village language, right? <laugh> for the, the work you're doing. And, um, if people are watching the, the video of this, maybe later when we published the video when Anisha was talking about, uh, you know, the people who light you up and the, the change your fingers, you were like rubbing your fingers together and like you can touch it, you know, and I could, I could feel it when you were doing that, right? So that really resonates with me, that being around people who can see what doesn't exist right. And are building towards that are the ones that, that light me up as well, right? And those, that's what we're, we rep replenish each other when we're able to le lean into that, that vision. That's right. And I, you know, I, along the lines of, of shared leadership, a lot of us haven't seen that <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Mia (14:51):
In other organizations at when we're considering it or when we're even in it. You know, the two, the two organizations where I was co-leading, I was not offered, I didn't have the luxury of like a consideration period or anything <laugh>. I, in both, in both cases, I was just told, you'll be co-direct, you'll be co-leading. You'll be leading with this other person, <laugh>, figure it out. And the first time I didn't really know which questions to ask. The second time I did have better questions to ask, and it was still, it was exciting. But I, you know, beyond just knowing what I'd done before in those attempts to do it, we really hadn't seen it before. I hadn't seen it before. For those who do have the luxury of considering a <laugh> a change in a model, currently, they have a, a model that does not support shared leadership at, you know, at the top of an organizational hierarchy, right? There might be shared leadership amongst projects and teams and that kind of thing, but they're thinking about who is representing the organization, right? Who is making major decisions for the organization and sharing that power. Um, what are the, some of the things that people should be thinking about, um, as they consider adopting that model?
Anisha (16:04):
Whew. How long is this podcast <laugh>? We can
Mia (16:09):
Do a part two if we need it. I was thinking about, it's a
Anisha (16:12):
Lot. Well, <laugh>, lemme lemme pull it out. The scrolls. Um, gosh, you know, this, this list is forever, um, getting longer and longer. Um, but maybe some, some things that I think about are in the first place, just starting with your own relationship to this role, the power that currently exists in the role, the way that people orient to the role. You know, it's like we, we often move ourselves out of the equation as you, you know, sort of named like, no, like wherever you go, there you are. And you will still be with yourself <laugh> as you're doing this shared leadership role, whatever you're calling it. And if your own relationship to power, I mean, I just speak for myself, like coming to a worker owned cooperative truly requires not only, uh, like wiping <laugh> clear of, of everything that has, has like, been embedded about power being scarce and having to compete and having to like, do certain things in order to be seen as excellent, right?
Anisha (17:29):
All of those things are washed away because the cultural norms and the basis on which our relationships are tended to, um, is directly about shared leadership and power sharing and constantly involves us considering like, what am I doing here? What's my, my relationship to this? Is this okay with me? How am I responding? Like, just having that and, and constantly tending to that, right? And so that's piece number one. And then I think like it's, it is really deeply tuning into why this model now. And I think some people get into it because they're burnt out and they're like, here's, hey guy, you're gonna share this labor and that's gonna be, phew. What a relief. You know, without really changing any of the other dynamics in the organization without really asking anything different from all the other workers in the organization who are not part of this co directorship team, though, it really just becomes kind of like two executive directors, um, and more sort of like calcification of existing problems, right?
Anisha (18:42):
So it's like getting really, really clear, like, what is the purpose of this? And how deeply are you willing to take this inquiry about power? That is a real, I think that's a real honest question, right? It's like, if, if you're not there, there are some folks who are like, no, we didn't mean all that. Like, well, I'm not sure that this was clear to anyone else. Right? So just setting up those parameters and then making that really clear to everyone so folks can consent of whether to participate in that kind of a model or not. Right?
Mia (19:20):
Right, right. I hear you for sure. When someone is a single director and then they are part of a decision making process or, or, um, a consideration process for going to share leadership, and they themselves are gonna be part of that without an opportunity to really step back for some dedicated time to look at what the job has been <laugh> and what everyone is seeing the job should be. And is it, is it fatigue that is bringing you to this place? Because possibly it was, it was actually two jobs or three jobs, <laugh> that you were doing before. So now you're gonna share leadership, you are still gonna be working a lot <laugh>, you know, or, you know, your job is not gonna be cut in half necessarily, or perhaps, or organization has grown and there is just more to do. So even bringing in someone else, it's still going to look like two very full jobs.
Mia (20:21):
That's right. You know, <laugh>. So it's, you know, it's not like when you were saying that, woo, you know, we're gonna bring another director out, that it's always some faults hope, I think <laugh> and what is gonna happen. And so I really appreciate that. Um, you know, we talk about purpose, outcome process, you know, it comes out of Rockwood. We talk about that all the time at Freedom Lifted. Be clear on what the purpose is for changing the model. Just a quick break to note that the Shared Power Podcast is sponsored by Freedom Lifted and our flagship training program, justice at Work. Justice at Work offers blended learning and professional development for organizations and individuals who are strengthening their commitment to justice and equity in their workplaces and in their communities. This training combines discussions with online modules that teach frameworks and critical history to help you examine the relationship between identity and power.
Mia (21:24):
You'll even have opportunities to join live group discussions facilitated by me, Mia, Henry, go beyond diversity and inclusion to find your role in building a more just and equitable world. Learn more and sign up@freedomlifted.com. Um, what about if it's not, if the consideration process is lying on a, on a board, for example, or an a board working with a consultant or someone and they're trying to launch an organization, right? Or shift an organization major shift, you know, so they don't necessarily have people who are, would be moving into the model. They're thinking about it in a more theoretical sense, right?
Anisha (22:12):
I think, you know, there, there are a few things. I mean, one is like deeply understanding the existing culture of the organization through a a worker lens, right? And so it's like, well, you, you can't just be the board and sorting out what you see from, from that vantage point. There has to be like a real deep connect with what is happening inside of the organization. I think there is sometimes a desire to bring in, like if there's sort of a, an existing staff body that is having issues, it's like, let's put all this on some new folks who may be joining us rather than kind of sorting, well, maybe what we might need is like multiple strategies. Like yes, new leadership and shoring up other elements of our organizational life. I think like trying to follow the, the thread in determining like, yeah, how, how deeply do we want to take this?
Anisha (23:16):
Because if we bring in new leadership and new leadership is asking really powerful questions and wanting to like, yeah, okay, you, you gave me the reins and you told me that you wanted this to be a co-director ship. Well, we can, like, we can take this in like so many different ways and having kind of like a mismatch in energy of the depth of change and to the extent that people are taking it. And then I think like, maybe there's another, there's another approach that's like a very, very technical approach that tends to come from doing a lot of research and kind of like, you know, reading case studies and seeing what happened in holacracy and sociocracy and mm-hmm <affirmative>. All these different things. And people come with like a very, very sort of like technical sense of, you know, if we have the right decision making models, we've set all the things up, all that we need to do is sort of like, plug people into this and then it's gonna work. And I think like, to that end, and to your point, like a, a matchmaking period is really essential because you're gonna be so intimately connected to this person if it's working in, in the way that it should be, that it takes a lot more than a couple of interviews to sort that. Yeah.
Mia (24:38):
Because they're people <laugh>, <laugh>. Yeah. They have, you know, different sets of experiences, desires, ways that they are currently showing up in the, in the work that they're doing on themselves as leaders too, and how the organization will be able to feed them as, as leaders as well. That's what, that's what people should be thinking about when they're joining an organization. Not just how will they serve the organization, but how will the organization feed them as well. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so when you have more than one person <laugh>, right? Then, then yeah, we have to consider, consider all those things with organizations that you work with that are already committed and in it for at least, you know, a couple years they're in this shared leadership model, whether it be, and it's this could, I don't wanna just say it's co-directors. We were talking about that in a previous conversation, not just two people.
Mia (25:32):
It could be a collective of folks. It could be, um, the co-op, right? Like what y'all have at aorta, what kind of maintenance <laugh> is needed. You know, my whole first season of the podcast were based on these eight conversations that, um, I wish I had had or I wish I had handled better <laugh>, or when we did do it right, it really helped, um, shared leadership work that I've been doing over the years. And so I offer that as, you know, prompts and kind of seeds, you know, for conversations, meetings, retreats around those things. What do you see as some of the most important work that people can doing do in an ongoing way when they're trying to make sure that their model, the shared leadership model remains healthy, you know, between them and it still works for the organization too.
Anisha (26:25):
Um, I think both of those dynamics are important to continue to tag into. And I think for most of the groups that I am working with that have like three or four co-directors or kind of like five coordinators that are like on a coordinating council or something like that, regular coaching is essential, which is like, I'm coming to you once a month, you are lifting up those tangles that do not neatly fit into any one bucket. You know, it's like, well, we have this decision making grid. Well, it turns out that it, that this decision making grid does not encapsulate, you know, kind of things that require more, you know, nuance or things that require more like in the gray thinking, right? And so it's like, how are we getting through those really difficult tangly moments, which are far more than less, right? Like those, they're there all the time.
Anisha (27:26):
There's also like the interpersonal tending. Like I always encourage people on shared leadership teams that your growth, your development does not always happen. Have to happen in full view of everyone. All the things that you're thinking and pondering on doesn't have to be, um, sort of sorted amongst this group of shared leaders. It is possible for you to go elsewhere, work that out, and then come back in. And I think that is really important because as shared leadership teams continue to work together, you know, you can kind of like get a bit flat, right? And like, oh, are we really lifting up difference inside of this team, or are we just really happy that we're all agreeing for once and stuff is just moving and, you know, stuff is getting done. Isn't that great? I think like another tuneup is, is this shared leadership team genuinely representing or tapping into the interests of all workers inside of this constellation of people?
Anisha (28:30):
And are we like, you know, exercising an influence perhaps that might be outsized? Are we making sure that we are genuinely hearing from folks and inviting their influence in ways that are impactful and important? So there's like that kind of, and that's a hard question. Like the influence question is a, is a tricky question because it requires you sort of like admitting, ooh, like maybe we've gone too far in, in this direction. Maybe we've gotten like a bit too bureaucratic and we're holding on too tightly. That's a little like, ooh. Like that that makes you feel like, Ooh, have I failed? Am I messing up? Like, oh, we're just like back in this, you know, spiral and it's like, no, we can expect this and as we go, we can reduce our surprise <laugh> at, at this because it's like, oh, here it is again. Now we have some more skills and tools to, to deal with it. Yeah,
Mia (29:29):
It sounds like you're, you're saying, I mean, I experienced this, we get kind of insular because we're so, we are paying so much attention to how we can work together well, <laugh> that we're not able to measure the influence we're having externally, both on the, on the other people working in the organization and in the, in the movements, the larger movements. That's right. Right. Is that, is that what I'm hearing? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. That's great. I don't think I've, I've ever heard that articulated so well. Some of the, the frustrations I've experienced and like, I, I understand we're doing something cool and novel with this shared leadership thing, but it is taking up so much of my time. <laugh>, I feel like we have a meeting, you know, sometimes we're just having meetings every week.
Anisha (30:16):
That's right.
Mia (30:17):
Trying to figure out who's doing what and how we're doing it. Right. And everything <laugh>. Yes.
Mia (30:22):
Yes. You know, when do we get to the, the fun work, the generative work, the, you know, and then all the, the rest of the staff is watching us naval gaze, you know, so it, it's very, it can be a very Yes. I, I love how you too, it's not, there shouldn't be any shame in it, right? Because it's, that's a, a lot of how we feel when we're not feeling like everything is going well, it becomes this feeling of personal failure. It's not that I love the term you used of tuneup, you know, we just need the, you know, the cars and the bikes we ride need tuneups, <laugh>, and we need it too. We just need to, you know, tighten up some things on a regular basis so that, um, so that everything is running smoothly. So the tuneups around looking at influence, right? And how we're staying, we can stay outward looking despite the the work that we, we are doing to be healthy inside. But then also, you said coaching and what I heard is both individual coaching and group coaching. Is that what I was hearing?
Anisha (31:20):
I think that's right. And I, I think what one of the things which coaching does, does many things, but sometimes it allows people to name their own common sense, like their own sort of like wise self. And that wise self is not always incentivized inside of a workplace, inside of a shared leadership model of like, I'm feeling a thing, I'm sensing a thing, I'm noticing a thing, I've tracked a pattern, I'm saying a thing, right? It's not always <laugh>, it's not always, doesn't always follow that. And now you're receiving it really well, isn't that great? It doesn't happen like that. So sometimes it's good to be like, Ooh, I'm, I'm, I'm sense checking this. Is this, is this, am I on the right path or am I spiraling out? Uh, is there a story that I have told myself that I'm just looking for something to, to like validate that or am I on the right path here? And then if I am on the right path, how do I, how do I like, develop that voice to be able to express my common sense or my wise self inside of a shared leadership model? Right? Um, which, which takes skill and time and practice.
Mia (32:36):
That's great. And I'm wonder we're gonna come back to how you all at, at aorta and through Tide Lines specifically offered this coaching support to shared leadership models. I am, I'm wondering though, I recently saw building movement project, both of their co-directors decided to leave at the same time, was a very, from my perspective, it looked like a very thoughtful process, beautiful process. They were really, they weren't prescribing that the next form of leadership after they leave necessarily be co-directors or not. That to me just seemed just ideal that they would both, you know, <laugh> talk about leaving at the same time. Yes. This has not been my experience. Yes.
Anisha (33:17):
No <laugh>
Mia (33:20):
So what happens, because it's gonna happen that they're not two people, two or more people are not gonna all retire all on the same day Right. In 2029 or whatever. So what happens when inevitably one, um, co-director or one person as part of a a co-leadership team is ready to leave. And, you know, the other one is not,
Anisha (33:43):
It's such a hard one. I'm feel like I'm supporting so many people right now who are moving through this and it's really hard. 'cause there's different reasons why that separation happens, right? And so there's like, there, there's that piece unto itself, and then it's like, it's really hard to have someone's departure and whatever was true for them in that work. And that departure not become like the story for everyone, right? And so it's like someone might be leaving because they have a real, like, you know, specific and important critique of something that has happened or dynamics that exist, or patterns that are really problematic inside of the work that are hard for them. And it is a, a, a moment of like deep discernment that I think requires like many hearts, minds to pour through, right? And to do that with some element of efficiency.
Anisha (34:39):
So it's like, Ooh, this person is departing. We wanna, we wanna like a positive departure. We want them to be received well in community and we too want to receive them well as they are departing and let us make like expedient work of sorting through the information that they are sharing with us. So then we can like move to what is Im important next for us, right? That is one piece of it. I think the other piece is like spending time with the remaining person to really figure out, like, and what is happening with you <laugh>, right? Like, what is happening with you? Do you want a, a replica of this again? Like, and taking an honest moment to assess that, which can be really hard because it's the urgency around having somebody else in that role going, going, going like, we can't, we can't stop. The machine is so pressing. And I feel like saying to folks like, please be sure that when you have a co directorship model have some like backup supports in place that are internal so that you know when the inevitable happens, which is that somebody will want to leave, that you have not a urgent response that makes you feel like you have to just fill the spot. Yeah, yeah. But one that is like deliberate and we, we've got your back like person that's left. We we got your back. Right?
Mia (36:06):
Yeah. And when you're saying that spending time with the person who's, they are still, what, whose responsibility is that?
Anisha (36:12):
Yeah. Ugh. That's a, that is, that is real <laugh>. That is so real. What I'm seeing right now is a lot of people having to advocate for themselves to be seen, to be heard, and to be flanked in the process of seeking what's to come next. I don't see a lot of that, right? I see either kind of a board approach that makes the remaining person feel like, Ooh, I'm under the spotlight. Like I better just sort of like give a cleaned up version of what's going on here so that we can just move. Or it's like, let's go to the staff, right? And then the staff is like, yeah, some of this works, some of this didn't work. We need this and we've got all these ideas and it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like that's gonna take forever to implement. Like, what, where is the medium place that we can go? And so yeah, I think like ideally it would be maybe like a board person, maybe like one staff member or an HR person, or like a people person that's like, yeah, I'm, I'm here and we're gonna be kind of like the transition shepherds and we're gonna like both support you as well as discern what is really next. You know? And like being comfortable with a, the like, now we're gonna be kind of like an experiment and flex mode for a little bit before we get to what is the next
Mia (37:38):
Yeah. I love how you say experiment and flex mode versus uncertainty on, oh my God, what the hell are we gonna do <laugh>?
Anisha (37:48):
Yes.
Mia (37:48):
You know, I'm like, let's frame it in that experiment and flex mode.
Anisha (37:52):
Yes, yes, yes.
Mia (37:54):
And you know, to be completely transparent, Anisha, I was the one who left Uhhuh, you know, in both cases and not because I felt pushed out. There were, I had both incredible experiences of both jobs. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So it was, I was being pulled to do other things, right. I was feeling called to do, do other things. Yes. And still it did feel like jarring I think for the organizations when I did need to leave mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I couldn't help but feel that people were feeling abandoned in some kind of way or, you know, this is, this is with, with any kind of transition, uh, leadership can, it can be with transition leadership, but particularly with co-leadership, you know, you don't want it to feel like for the other co-director or the other people who are co-leading to feel like, well, that person is leaving and doing something else and, you know, is it better than this or does it, you know what I mean? And is this work still, you know, valued mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right? Um, and it's of course it is, but it may not feel that way when there's someone who's leaving it, you know? Um, so I I really do appreciate that framing of, uh, this is a flex time, it's an experimental time. It's an actually, it's a pause time if we can figure it out, figure out to set aside time to pause and really look at what type of leadership this organization needs given, uh, its phase its age and the people holding it up. Mm-hmm
Anisha (39:25):
<affirmative>. That's right.
Mia (39:27):
So that, that goes to my last question before we talk about tide lines. Do you think that every organization, <laugh> that is doing social movement work, or that is advancing justice and supporting equity work, right? And believing in it, rooted in it. Do they all need a shared leadership model?
Anisha (39:48):
Hmm. This question is a setup <laugh>. Yeah. You know, I, I think it is that the organization needs to honestly be tending to power and influence and leadership cultivation inside of the organization. And those are typically organizations that commit to a shared leadership model because in that commitment, it requires that you do some things even if you don't wanna do those things. And sometimes that's the push that is needed to like, okay, we're gonna choose a different response. Like we're, we are incentivized to move in all these ways, but we are gonna choose a different response. And the commitment to this model, now we're making the commitment public, now we better do something about it. Is sometimes the impetus that people need. Are there organizations that do a really excellent job and cultivating pathways around leadership and followership and inviting, like really powerful ways to be in leadership and followership?
Anisha (40:52):
Those are probably few, but they, but they exist. And I think like, it is also sometimes the like, oh, we've gotta take on a shared leadership model. People will often say, when they are hiring aorta, and we work with, I would say like the, the vast majority of organizations that we work with are nonprofit organizations that have some element of role hierarchy inside of their, you know, space. And, you know, people will say like, oh, well, we're not gonna become like a flat organization like y'all <laugh>, you know, and it's like, calm down <laugh>. We don't, we don't have the time for that either, <laugh>. So it's gonna be all right. We just want to ask some questions, um, and see if you are even thinking in these ways. Like, you can't move from what you're doing to flat without even having this inquiry. Right? So it's like, are you asking the right questions and is your, is your spotlight in the right place? That's, that's what I'm more <laugh> we're more concerned with. Right.
Mia (41:53):
I love that. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So is there any other advice that you feel like you'd like to give folks out there who are either considering moving to this model or who are currently in the model and, you know, really trying to stay committed to it? Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Anisha (42:11):
Yeah, I think, um, I have, I have been doing this for myself recently because I've been asking a lot of my, my coachees to do this, which is like, what is your leadership logic? How do you think this is supposed to work? And not in a way that is calling upon. I think, you know, people will often say like, oh, I wanna be like transformative and liberatory and loo de bloops and <laugh>. It's like, okay, you know, what does that mean? All the words? All the words, you know? And it's like, oh, could you just make the logic of your leadership plain? Like just, just make it plain to yourself so then you can like interface accordingly, right? So if I know that the logic of my leadership, I know like where it came from, I know where the missteps are, I know like where the misshapes have been, the constrictions, the expansions. Like I, I'm, I'm clear, like I can, I'm really clear <laugh> and I'm still learning, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, and by knowing that, that supports me to then engage with other people and still take responsibility and agency to, to move, to shift, to, to choose differently. And that step skipped and having to just like jump into a role and then also jump into the like, request of the role that the organization is making is a lot of performance without having first tagged in with yourself. So that feels so, so important to do and say,
Mia (43:50):
Could you tell us what your leadership logic is? No, <laugh>, I'm like this, that was a deep question.
Mia (44:01):
It does beg to say, well, let's go beyond, because I do hear people, oh, transformative. And, and so I'll be like, well, what does transformative mean to you? You know, what does this mean? It's one of my, it's almost flippant now and I shouldn't be, but when people ask me what leadership is, I'm like, leadership is about making decisions. Like how do you make decisions? Yeah. <laugh>. And I don't think that's all of it necessarily, but I do think that it's one of those questions, if I was going to answer that question of what is my leadership logic? Mm-hmm. It's how do I think about making decisions? Hmm. You know, and it's gonna be different depending on the type, right. But even being able to flesh that out is important. Yeah. Right. <laugh> with these types of decisions, I wanna make it by myself with these types of decisions.
Mia (44:50):
I want the consultative model, right. With these types of decisions, I'm, I'm willing to delegate because I know that I am not, I don't have enough information or experience to make the best decision here. That's right. So I wanna delegate it either to another individual or to another team of individuals. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know, but really being able to, it's, it's a great journal prompt, I think, for myself and just thinking about, well, what, what are the cases, you know, for each of those in each of those ways? What, what do I have to be honest about? That these are decisions I want to make. I might listen to some advice around it, but at the end of the day, <laugh>, I believe I'm best positioned mm-hmm <affirmative>. To make this decision mm-hmm <affirmative>. In a way that will benefit everyone. Right. And then of course, that too, right? Are you, are we making decisions for the benefit of all or for the benefit of ourselves, or a few? So that's a deep question. Anisha, I'm gonna have to be the <laugh>
Anisha (45:48):
And I'm gonna have to take my own medicine and like, really, really, um, spell that out. But I think one aspect of my leadership logic does really come from wanting to actively practice being in leadership, um, and feeling good about it and feeling supported through it. And then also like being in a dance where in the next moment I can be in followership. And I'm very, like, I'm feeling great about that too. And I will say that like the formation in which I am in right now in moments of followership, I never feel like behind or lost or left out. Yeah. I am like, oh, I am definitely orienting to you because you are the expert. You have skill, you have, you have spent the time. You are, you are like taking space in this way. And I am like, I am seeding it, you know? Yeah. And there's not a push and pull. And I think like that part of the logic of like, not wanting a push and pull, I don't wanna feel that. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Mia (46:56):
So
Anisha (46:57):
I'm like, that is my logic. My logic says to me that I want to be at ease in, in leadership and how I move.
Mia (47:04):
Mm. You know? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yes. All of the things you said and seeding, you know, leadership to others and following. I would add also that I trust that person to do something that's not going to hurt me too. Right? Correct. Like, I trust that that person's decision making is going to, and also include care Yes.
Anisha (47:25):
For
Mia (47:25):
Me, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, and for others. And, and, um, I think that that is something we have to be really honest about when we are, when we lack trust. Mm. Right. <laugh> in these conversations around shared leadership is sometimes we have to demonstrate care.
Anisha (47:45):
That's right.
Mia (47:47):
Wow. I just love talking to you. We could just go on and on. We know we, it's hard. You, we can't tell like, specific stories, right? Because <laugh> <laugh>, we don't, we, we, we don't wanna put anybody like in this, in this podcast that doesn't wanna be in it. But, you know, uh, hopefully folks will, if they have questions, um, that they feel to us, I'd love to bring you back for maybe a part two in 2025 to like respond to some of the questions, you know, um, that people have. Because I know this is very much a topic of deep, deep interest in, in our, um, movement organizations.
Anisha (48:23):
Absolutely.
Mia (48:24):
Yeah. So tell us finally just about what would you wanna lift up? Of course, aorta and tide lines a little bit about that. How to get in touch with you. What other organizations and work would you like to lift up?
Anisha (48:35):
Oh, sure. Well, um, you know, my, my home away from home is Aorta, um, Anti-Oppression Resource and Training Alliance. We're a worker-owned co-op, and one of the many things that we do is run a coaching cohort for shared leaders, which is called Tide Lines. And it's a cohort based program, which means that folks are applying to be in the program. Last round, we had both trios and dyads of folks. I think we might have even had a group of four, but it's folks who are in the mix of shared leadership, and there are co-ops, there are huge nonprofits, there are local organizations that are just doing their thing. It's a mix of everyone. And the inquiry is really like getting folks to tap into their own shared leadership styles and connection to power. And then we move into talking about decision making. We talk about care and support and accountability, all the good stuff. And we do it in community with each other so that the idea is to reduce the shame and just increase the visibility on like, the day-to-day stuff of this very powerful but very difficult work. And if folks wanna learn more about aorta, we're at aorta dot co-op, and folks can reach me directly to learn more about Tide Lines or any other work that we are doing as well. We have an awesome facilitation program, and also have lots of other juicy offerings.
Mia (50:14):
Yes. Very juicy aorta is a gift. So I'm so happy to, to have you here, Anisha, and if there are any other resources that you have too, that if people can't get into Tide lines when they, you know, know, because you all are very popular. If there's anything else that you have that you would like to, um, share with folks, please let me know. We'll put it in the show notes, um, for the podcast. But, oh, this was, I knew it was gonna be great, and it exceeded my expectations. I love talking to you and looking at your smiling face while we're having this conversation. While we're talking about such an important structural work to support Shared power has been absolutely a pleasure. Thank you for you.
Anisha (50:53):
Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for you. What a beautiful offering. Loved…
Mia (50:57):
It. Thank you for listening to my conversation with Anisha Desai. You can learn more about Anisha's life and work in the show notes of this episode. This podcast is a production of Freedom Lifted, a company that provides training, facilitation, and coaching for leaders rooted in justice and equity. It is produced and edited by Cassandra Sampson at its 97 Communication support, also provided by Maureen Re and Alicia Bunger. For more information about our work, visit freedom lifted.com or follow us at Freedom Lifted on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn.