Season 2, Ep. 5: Shared Power in Public Libraries with Naghem Swade
How do we reframe power within the shared space of a public library? How do we engage Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion (EDI) work within our current political climate? How do we remain conscientious leaders while prioritizing individual and collective healing?
In this final episode of season 2 of the podcast, I welcome Naghem Swade from Denver Public Library to discuss concepts of identity, self-reflection, trauma and healing, shared power in public spaces, and EDI work within public libraries.
Whether you work within a public library system or you visit the library on occasion, this episode has something for you. Together, Naghem and I envision a world where we find refuge in each other and in public space.
Listen to the Full Episode
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
[3:51] Naghem Swade’s people… and “The False Refuge”
[14:20] Every life experience is real and valid
[20:17] “Our goal as a public library is to create a pure and vibrant learning community.”
[26:34] EDI within the current political climate
[34:27] Naghem’s advice for public library teams and workers
[37:51] Academic superiority and the public library
Featured On The Show:
Naghem Swade, EDI Training and Development Manager for the Denver Public Library, is an eternal advocate for radical social change. Naghem has worked for the Denver Public Library system for 10 years in a variety of roles and subject areas, notably creating and implementing distinctive culturally inclusive community programming. Having championed and led multiple successful DEI campaigns throughout her time with the library, she currently designs and leads organizational DEI learning and development initiatives.
Additional Resources:
Justice at Work in Public Libraries is a framework and training program for public libraries making a commitment to justice and equity.
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Full Episode Transcript:
Mia:
Welcome back to The Shared Power Podcast! I have enjoyed partnering with public libraries since 2017, so I’m excited to introduce the first guest we’ve had who is working to share power in the library space.
Naghem Swade is the EDI (equity, diversity, and inclusion) Training and Development Manager for the Denver Public Library. Naghem has worked for Denver’s system for 10 years in a variety of roles, creating and implementing distinctive, culturally inclusive community programming and leading organizational EDI learning and development.
In this conversation, Naghem and I explore what it looks like for us to share power in public spaces. We discuss the roles of identity, self-reflection, and healing, all in service to advancing EDI work within libraries.
Naghem and I have been working together for almost a year bringing training to Denver Public Library staff in a deep and intentional way. She has shown me what it looks like to make training not just an add-on at the library, but an integrated part of staff professional development.
I didn’t know it was possible, but this conversation made me respect Naghem even more. I am truly honored to share with you my interview with one of the hardest working people in the library world, Naghem Swade.
Mia:
Everyone, I'm so excited today to talk to one of my favorite people in the public library world. Naghem, Swade, Naghem and I have been working together, I think for almost a year now, and doing some really amazing things at Denver Public Library, helping roll out training for all of the library staff, part-time, full-time everyone. And Naga is really one of the most thoughtful people that I have worked with in all of my client and training work with Freedom Lifted in particular, I was excited to bring this conversation, uh, to the podcast because of how much we value our public library partners and clients. And I wanted to help you and I wanted to make sure that Nams thoughtfulness and intention around the work was shared with other people in the public library world. So I welcoming you. Hello Naghem. Welcome to the Share Power podcast.
Naghem:
Hi Mia. Thank you so much for having me, and thank you for that really beautiful and warm introduction. Um, yeah, we've been working together for a year and I have learned so much from you just being in space and talking about like rolling out what this training at the library. And so super excited, honored, and privileged to be here with you today.
Mia:
Yes. I've been looking forward to this conversation. I can't tell you, we haven't had a public library person on our podcast yet, so you, you are the first, hopefully not the last, but yeah, you, when we were thinking about what it would look like to explore the topic of share power in libraries, you were the first person, one of the first people to pop to mind. So thank you for saying yes.
Naghem:
Yeah, you're very welcome. Again, thank you so much for having me.
Mia:
Alright, well, I'd love for us to start with you Naghem telling us a little bit about yourself. You know, who are your people, what are the influences and experiences that have brought you to your current work?
Naghem:
Yeah. Um, I'm gonna flip it around a little bit and start with who are my people <laugh>. 'cause my people are all over the world and, uh, it's part of my story. So I came to the United States when I was a, when I was seven as a child refugee from Iraq. Um, so have been in Denver, Colorado for, uh, for that entire time. And so that right there has really morphed and influenced how I show up and how I think about the world. Um, I'm the oldest of six kids, um, so I feel like I've been a parent since I was nine. <laugh>, taking care of like my parents and my siblings and all of that. And really my commitment is to humanity as a whole, just some of the experiences that I've seen and trying to navigate life here in the United States as a visibly Muslim woman who wears a hijab, a brown woman as well.
Naghem:
And so that right there, I grew up kind of when I was 12, 9, 11 happened and seeing people's experiences and reactions towards me. And even back then when I was 12, I, and I, I think, think I verbalized this to like my middle school teacher. I felt like the American public was the judge, the jury and the executioner for me and kind of my experiences. And really that had me second guessing everything of like, what does it mean to be American? What does it mean to be Iraqi? How can I balance, you know, those two identities. And then an undergrad being introduced to Gloria anal DOA and her mys consciousness, this idea of the third space that you don't fit in this space. You don't fit in this space. So you kind of have to create this third space for survival, right? And so I've been occupying a third space for survival for most of my life here and finding my safe people within that.
Naghem:
And I, my people are those who I can be authentically me and show up, you know, like my true self without having to code switch, without having to, you know, act a certain way or whatnot. And so I have safety at folks, um, who I work with at the library, and they share very similar experiences as well, um, safety with people at home. And those are my people, my people that understand that sometimes you have to code switch and sometimes you have to, I like to joke around that I wear multiple hijabs, so wear different hijabs on different days, <laugh>, just to be able to, I think, survive and fight through to the next day. So my people, um, are people around the world where we have that com, that commitment to humanity. Those are my safe people. And sometimes we welcome in new people to that space and sometimes we say goodbye to folks in that space.
Mia:
Wow. So beautifully said. And also, I didn't know this part of your story, especially this being my heart breaks a little bit, to be honest with you, for that 12-year-old girl that's such a formative age and for, you know, we learn about what it's like in this country as, as people of color. Yeah. Very, you know, it's all different types of, of experiences depending on who we are, right. And on our identities. And it feels like it, there's always this moment of heartbreaking reality mm-hmm <affirmative>. Of there was this promise of this country being welcoming and, you know, an opportunity for everyone to Yeah. Yeah. Live into this full realization of who they are and be part of this larger diverse community. Yeah. And then, you know, every single person I know <laugh> Yeah. Who doesn't, who who doesn't fit into the colonial like identities, right? For of the, of the people here have had this experience of being a new reality, right? Yes. Of a new you're, you're accepted, but you're not accepted. Yeah.
Naghem:
I call it false refuge, right? Mm-hmm. And so mm-hmm <affirmative>. For me, it was, there was a lot of guilt associated with it because I wanted to be successful even at like, at such a young age. And this is what has influenced my work, is healing while leading. And I think that influences so much of my work, right? Of like, I went through this experience and it was self-awareness and empowerment and I kind of got out of it. And now I want people to have that same experience. And so I call it false refuge is because coming in and being told the American dream, you made it, you're safe here and this is what you need to do and need to be to be successful. And you, you do all of that and you go above and beyond all of that, but then you're still not quite a hundred percent accepted into American society.
Naghem:
Yeah. Right? And then I was like, well, why, why am I bending over backwards trying to prove that a good person, I am a quote unquote good immigrant, I'm smart enough, all of that. And so there was a shift, and I think it was during undergrad, it wasn't radicalization so much as it was self-awareness and tapping into my inner power of like, no, I can show up and define who I want to be, and that is okay, you don't get to tell me who I wanna be. And so that experience over the years, um, has really influenced, um, and motivates and keeps that fire burning of like, people get to tell you who they are without you putting your assumptions and expectations onto them.
Mia:
Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. Uh, it's so powerful because I think, you know, this moving from a place of the goal is, is a, is acceptance to the goal is building a world where no one has to fight for acceptance <laugh>. Yeah.
Naghem:
Right. Deeply said, yes. <laugh>, that's
Mia:
The leading, right? Like the leading through healing is like, oh, this is the reality. Right? How do I lead in, in a way that is towards a world where this is not going to be a reality for my children or future generations? Yeah. Either where acceptance has to be the goal, right? Yeah. <laugh>, no, yeah.
Naghem:
It's, uh, authenticity and liberation.
Mia:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love that. The, the false refuge too. I have to remember that. That's what you called it, right? False refuge.
Naghem:
I, you know, <laugh> I did. I did. And a little future project that I've been working on for seems like Forever is actually, uh, writing a memoir under that title of False Refuge. Mm. I'm really trying to highlight my experience and my parents' experience and my siblings experiences of like what it means to grow up in the United States and to like be in the United States and carrying all of these multiple identities and histories and perspectives.
Mia:
Yeah. Yeah. And wrestling with the real history of oppression, right? Yeah. And finding our past a resisting oppression, which I hear both of those things in your story. Yeah. So, yeah. Thank you for so much for sharing it. Yeah. So with that, you said you talk about you have people at work, right? Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about your work? Uh, you work at Denver Public Library, but what is your role there? Who do you work alongside?
Naghem:
Yeah, so this is a fairly new official department, but my official title at the, at the Denver Public Library is EDI training and development manager. And so folks on my team as we have the EDI director who oversees kind of the team and then three managers, uh, three in, in the admin place. And so we were trying to be really intentional in how we serve our, and I'm gonna say customers, and really our customers are our internal staff. And so one's in one dimension, we have engagement, cultural and wellness. And so looking at the experience that people have while they're working at the Denver Public Library, and how can we have a culture of wellness and happiness and health, um, and how can we get folks engaged? And then the, the second space, uh, dimension of our team is policy and advocacy, right? And so looking at our current infrastructure, because you, we can work on relationships all day long, but if it's not embedded in our core values, and if we're not advocating for, um, equity, diversity, and inclusion change, we're, um, it's only a, a single side of the story, right?
Naghem:
And then training and development is kind of where I come in. And so we have a learning and development team that kind of takes care of all learning and development, quote unquote related activities. But my role is specific with that equity, diversity, and inclusion lens. And so I like to think of us, the entire department as really engaging with people, behavior and infrastructure to move along. EDI work and we report to our chief officer of equity and strategy. And so when I say this is a new role, most of us have been in our roles less than a year officially. Right? Wow. Yeah. So we're trying to figure, we're trying to figure it out. But I've been with the Denver Public Library for almost a decade, for 10 years. And so started out, um, as like an activity leader with our Plaza program, so really focused on our immigrant and refugee communities and trying to meet their needs and really define what that relationship looks like, and then a clerk at one of the locations, and then for the last seven years, focusing on creating culturally inclusive and welcoming programming.
Naghem:
And so folks are like, wait, what does that mean? And I was like, that's where we mute to the status quo and focus on everyone else where we celebrate both individual and collective identities, where we make space for folks who have very different, you know, cultural identities mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so programming like Lunar New Year, Asian American Pacific Islander Month, indigenous People's Heritage Month, world Refugee Day. And so my people at the library are those branches. We have 28 branches at the Denver Public Library. So folks who are like, we're gonna take your idea, your program, and we're gonna bring it here because we have those community members. And so my work right now is system-wide focused. We have about 800 staff members at the library. So my work influences everyone at the library talking to leadership, uh, trying to define accountability, set those expectations, really have our leadership lead with inclusivity and understanding, and then hopefully have that translate to a more healthier, respectful, welcoming workplace. And so equity is actually part of our organizational values. We are committed to challenging inequities at all levels of the library and at all levels of our work. But what that looks like and what that means is different things on different days depending on what's happening. <laugh>.
Mia:
Yeah. Yeah. What aspect of the work is most exciting to you? Like what, where do you feel most alive in the work that you do?
Naghem:
Um, I feel most alive. I was talk, I was talking to, um, my, my boss, uh, yesterday. And so I do, I, the, the justice at work training that we're rolling out to all staff and we're, we've actually been doing weekly workshops, um, every Wednesday, these debrief sessions, so folks can have an opportunity to come and engage and really unpack, um, what they learned on the online content. And so I feel most alive when I'm talking to people. Um, and I, I think the last session I started out was like, we're 20, there's 20 folks in this room that's 20 different perspectives and 20 different life experiences, and they're all real, and they're all valid. Yeah. And I think having people just recognize that, yes, you know, this is very real, this is really valid, and that aha moment for people, that's what keeps me going.
Naghem:
Yeah. You know? And, um, at the end of the day, folks who work at the libraries are public servants at heart, um, and they just want to serve the community. And I think the beautiful thing, I like to think of a library as like, um, a social experiment that if we can get it right here Oh yeah. Right? When we have people from all walks of life come in and are not limited to what they can learn, what they can access, that this could be a catalyst to actual radical social change that we could influence other spaces, uh, within our culture. And so, I don't know if that's fair to say, but very much so a social experiment that I am very committed to making sure is successful. Yeah. And that's what keeps me going of, like, do we, can we get it right here at the library?
Naghem:
Yeah. When, you know, we have folks, if we look at class, we have folks who are upper class, middle class, lower class, and they're in this same space together. We have people who have come from so many different racial identities, ethnicities, gender expressions, and, and civilities, um, from all walks of life. And we're in this space together. And I think that's very rare throughout the world to bring people in their beautiful differences together in that space. And so if we can figure out how to interact as humans and have common decency in that space mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Mia:
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Naghem:
Can this influence other spaces
Mia:
Even beyond common de decency? I mean, what you describe is the reason why I love working with libraries as well. Because when I see folks like you and, you know, people who are working at every level of libraries, you know, getting it, getting it right, if you will. Right. Like prefiguring the world that we're trying to build. Yeah. It feels like that. It provides a nugget of hope for other parts around the other, other spaces Right. In the world. Yeah. And when you said, you talked about making sure everyone starting off a conversation, acknowledging the, that every single person brings in a different experience. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. That's one of the things we talk about around power, right? Visibility. Yeah. And you are framing your whole interaction, right. Their entire time together with this acknowledgement that you see every single one of them. Yeah. So I wanna go back to something you said, be earlier about muting the status quo and, you know, highlight the experiences of everyone else. Does anyone truly identify with the status quo?
Naghem:
I think they un unconsciously do. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because it's comfortable and it's the default. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so when we at the library, and sometimes people are like, whoa, that is way too extreme. You're talking about white supremacist culture, right? And that means we're attacking a certain people, people or a certain group, or you're talking about anti-racism, and we're not trying to say, oh, you're racist, or you're wrong, or whatever it is. And so when I say the status quo, the status quo is we all engage in it. We are all engaging in these structures. And these systems most of times are invisible to people, but they dictate how we move, how we think, right? Yeah. And so when I say we mute it, I actually, we define it of what it is, you know, and what are these behaviors, these expectations, these assumptions that are underneath the status quo. And people go about their day-to-day lives under the status quo of like how you're supposed to act, how you're supposed to behave, because that's what dominant culture tells us of how we're supposed to show up in the world. And so when we mute the status quo, we acknowledge it exists, we define it, and then people are like, oh, I didn't even know I was doing these things. And so by acknowledging its existence, then we can say, well, this is the status quo. Let's turn it off and let's work for an alternative.
Mia:
Yeah. Yeah. So, and we really had a, a lot of, I don't know, fun is the right word, but <laugh>, <laugh>, I enjoyed thinking through, you know, the custom lessons for Denver Public Library around the white supremacy culture in particular. Yeah. Because you already understood the way we approach it is the self-reflection first. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right? So it's not about pointing the finger at others and how they are dealing with the status quo or perpetuating the status quo, but what, how have we internalized it? What do we see? How do we see it in ourselves? And how we show up at work? And so being able to like, like you said, see it, acknowledge it so that then we can mute it and, and imagine other ways of being. Absolutely.
Naghem:
Um, I think self-awareness is so easily said and assumed that it's easy, um, to do, but it's so hard. And it's like particularly self-reflection when we're asking people to like take an intentional pause. And I think taking an intentional pause is very foreign and goes against the status quo. 'cause we're expected to always go, go, go. So taking an intentional pause, and I'm like, all right, how did you show up today?
Mia:
Yeah, yeah.
Naghem:
And what influenced, have you showed up today? Yeah. Yeah. And so people, I think that's where a lot of discomfort comes from. Mm-hmm
Mia:
<affirmative>. Yeah. But the growth comes from discomfort. Oh, yeah. So that's, this is what we <laugh>
Naghem:
Lifelong learning and growing <laugh>. Yeah.
Mia:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So what are some other things that have been really promising about the work? Tell, you know, tell me a story of when you were like, this is working <laugh>. Yeah,
Naghem:
Yeah. I can kind of tell you. And it goes back, and I think to your brilliance, honestly, not trying to put you on a pedestal, but to your brilliance of how you define social power. And that power is not dominance. And so when we tell people, and we go through the training and we say, look, this is social power. When we're talking about social power, we're saying these are traits, right? So agency visibility, validated experience, free of worry, and that it's relational. And so people are like, well, I'm just me. I can't give power to anybody else. And so when we have all of these examples of social power, and we're like, well, yeah, you can, you can give this to people now, yes. Resources, if we're talking about money is limited, but all of this is an abundance. You can give it to people and we can start with ourselves.
Naghem:
And I think just reframing what power is and people are like, oh my God, yes, I can do this. Yes, I can give social power, or yes, I can share power with others. That right there continues to be a light bulb moment for everyone. Um, and I think we've had 20 workshops so far since we've launched the Justice at Work training. And that is a number one thing I hear is the reframing of like, power is not dominance. That it's not neither dirty or bad, it's what we do with it. And we could actually empower ourselves and realign our relationship with power and start giving it and sharing it with other people. And so I think that gives me hope, <laugh> of that aha moment, right? And so as we're trying to change these structures and these systems, that by having these everyday conversations with ourselves first and with our community members, um, it's very much so empowering.
Naghem:
And so the entire, uh, justice at work training and even, um, these debrief sessions that we have, I always frame it as two things. The goal of this is self-awareness and empowerment. Like understanding how we're showing up, how are these dynamics affecting us? How are they influencing our actions? Or how are they influencing our relationships? And then empowerment. So it's conscious unlearning and intentional relearning. And that gives me hope, is that yes, people just needed and need time for dialogue and opportunities and connection. And so our goal at the library is to really create a vibrant peer learning community. So your training gave us foundations and baseline and language that we are hoping to launch and grow from, that we can keep on adding to it. And so there's that always that, that light and that hope right there, that people are able, yeah. That people are not, I think. And what the way your approach is, is people are not afraid of EDI 'cause to them EDI, some folks are very scared of it. It seems like a big thing. It seems very divisive. And so framing it in this really simple language and approach is powerful.
Mia:
That's wonderful. <laugh>. <laugh>. I'm so glad to hear it. I didn't know you all were meeting every week either, like you were I was what you said earlier. So that's fantastic. And you, you really are owning the, it's my dream, really, uh, for the training work that we do, is that the, the folks that we work with own it. And it becomes a launchpad to the next, you know, phase of growth and, and evolution of how people understand equity as being truly integrated. It is when we're doing the work. Well, it is equitable <laugh>. So it is not, you know, um, and it is, it's justice oriented, right? It's looking at our history. It's, it's being able to, to face our history and, you know, acknowledge these impacts of oppression Yeah. And be able to Yeah. Build new worlds. So you all are doing it. And I heard a pastor last night, I went to a a, a program last night, which was, uh, it was great. It was the interview with the author of a new biography on, on Martin Luther King. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it just won the Pulitzer. And I was like, and so I was very interested in like, what makes this biography of King, you know, <laugh>, right. Any different than the many other biographies of King.
Naghem:
Like what more can I learn? Right?
Mia:
What more can, well, yeah, I mean I, there's always more to learn about a figure, you know, is kind of towering as he can, has been in our history, but it's all, all, all we're learning now is how human he was. <laugh>, which is what I love. And that's what this huge biography is just the human humanizing of King. But one of the things that the, the pastor said who was leading the co the conversation or introducing it when we ended, you know, you know how I always talk about expect unfinished business as one of our Right. That's part of courage means we need to know that there's still more work to do. And he said something like, just as we know that every one meal cannot fill us for the rest of our, our lives. And you know, I talk sometimes about this work being like, brushing your teeth, right? Not an inoculation. Right. <laugh>, um, that kind of practicing liberation work that we, we do in both what we are talking about, but also how we are with one another is so key and your, uh, leadership and ensuring that that is ongoing work. That everyone is brushing their teeth, right. <laugh> all the time. It's so heartening. Thank you for the note on the content, but it's the way you all are rolling it out too. That is a big part of the success, I'm sure.
Naghem:
Thank you. We have full transparency. When I was hired a year ago, I essentially was inherited this project. 'cause you've been working with the Denver Public Library for like four years to try to get this like up and going. Right? And so I inherited this project. I, and I wanted to, to hold both truths up, which is we gotta get this done <laugh>, right?
Mia:
Yeah. Yeah.
Naghem:
But then also, how do we make sure, how do we understand the impact that this is going to have on the rest of the organization and how is it going to talk to future trainings? Because this is kind of part of our legacy of this department as we're building it up and doing training for this sake of training is not really helpful. And so I think it helped me really understand of like, this is where we're starting. How do we grow from here?
Mia:
Mm.
Naghem:
Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah.
Mia:
So, you know, I know you're in Denver. It's, it's Denver <laugh>. It's in Colorado. People consider it a blue state. I know that they, these things are, um, politics. Politics is much more nuanced than, uh, than two colors. However, you know, the area that you're in is considered a, you know, more progressive or left-leaning area. I'm wondering, you know, have you felt any external pressure to change direction or strategies, you know, as a result of the current political climate? Yeah.
Naghem:
After, uh, the election results were finalized, the mayor of Denver sent out. 'cause as public libraries we're considered city employees, right? So the mayor of Denver sent out an email saying, Hey, this is our reality, but we are committed to equity, diversity, and inclusion. Right? We're gonna do it, right. We're gonna fight for this. We're okay. And then our city librarian says some something else to staff at the library of like, this is not, this is not performative. You know, equity is one of our values, right? Challenging and equity. We are committed to this work, but it's always hard to do, uh, and bring to action, right? You do feel some of these external pressures of like, is this too strong of a tone? Do I have to use a different vo voice? Mm. Is this project not the right project for today? What is my audience feeling right now?
Naghem:
And so kind of taking our microscope and just looking at the library and then just really, uh, pulling it back and looking at the patterns and the overall, I think national assault on DEI and looking at the behaviors. And so I firmly believe that there are highs and lows to our work in terms of momentum regarding the timing. So in 2020 after the George Floyd murders, this advocacy for social justice, we saw this huge uptake. And people are saying, we're committed to DEI work, we're gonna get this done. But then it goes back to expect unfinished business because people think it's a box you can check off and that's it. You're done.
Mia:
Yeah.
Naghem:
Right? Yeah. And so right now, what I think we're feeling, and I think regardless of the elections, it's, it's a feeling we've been having for a while, is the slow of folks' appetite for EDI work, if you will, folks' appetite for social justice work. And so right now, I, I talk to my team of like, for us, really it's about very, being very strategic and making sure it's sustainable and making sure we survive the next four, eight years. And so EDI work in its nature is like, what does this moment need right now? And what do the folks need right now? And so we're always trying to be flexible and fluid to make sure that we are committed to, um, the goal we're trying to reach. But sometimes there's different flavors to it. And so that's something I always <laugh>, I I have to check in with myself, is the intensity of what I'm pushing or what I'm trying to get through to people.
Naghem:
And so sometimes people don't need me showing up 150% in full advocacy mode. Sometimes it's, they're going to listen more and be more open to listening maybe to 20 or 30% of that. And so that's what we're feeling right now, in particular as our new team is coming together with our audience, is really understanding our audience. 800 people. These are 800 different in individuals. What is their individual journey on the path of equity, diversity, inclusion, it's never ending. Have folks started? Do folks even believe that this is a journey that they need to be on? And so trying to be very intentional in creating separate spaces and separate learning tracks for folks who are on different, I think starting points on their journey. So there's always going to be an external pressure, even now more so with Trump being the new president and all of the things he said that he's gonna bring us in the next four years. And so to take care of our people, we have to be intentional and strategic to make sure we survive the next four, eight years. And we do it while mitigating as much harm as possible to, to our staff members and to ourselves.
Mia:
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think it's already being done. Yeah. <laugh>, I mean the, the president elect, uh, it's taking cues from people who've already led efforts to and successful efforts to outlaw EDI Yeah. In Texas and Florida And Idaho Right. Other places. So this is, it's already happening Yeah. <laugh> in places. And so the, the expansion of this negative rhetoric towards D-I-E-D-I work Yeah. Can absolutely become the national attitude at best, uh, and national law, right. At worst. So
Naghem:
I think even international, because we're seeing it not just in the United States, like in New Zealand, right. In the New Zealand parliament that they wanted to, they're like, oh, well, the indigenous peoples have too much power and this treaty that was here for 400 years ago, we wanna change it. And so we're seeing, um, the rise of white supremacist influence and so settler colonialism all over the world. And that's what's scary. And, and it's, it's very, very scary of like, I mean, the saying history repeats itself. It's not, it's not just for nothing. Yes, it does <laugh> and we're mm-hmm <affirmative>. And a lot of people are not listening to it, and they're not looking at these patterns. And so, but there is hope. There is hope in community. There is hope in collective liberation because we are a very resilient people.
Mia:
Yes. Yeah.
Naghem:
A species. And so we're gonna keep fighting for it. We're gonna be, we're gonna, are, we are recommitted to our shared humanity, and we're gonna keep fighting for it. Um, but that's not to say I think what's happening nationally, internationally, um, that doesn't make it any less scary.
Mia:
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Thank you for the message of, of reality and hope. Oh yeah. You know, <laugh> together
Naghem:
Too much of a, I'm trying not to be too much of a pessimist. 'cause people tell me, they're like, you're a pessimist. I was like, yeah. A realist maybe, but yes. Yeah, we can do, we, there's a lot to be done. But I think, um, as we're creating, as we c come up with these safe spaces and, you know, our safe people. Yeah.
Mia:
I gotta say though, every time I see the haka, it gives me chills. But when I saw that happening, the haka happening in the parliament meeting and all of what it represented for people who have been, they've been told to stay under afoot and refuse. Yeah. It was just super powerful,
Naghem:
I think to, and then the eye roll from the, from the president and I was like, really? You're gonna roll your eyes. <laugh>, sit down.
Mia:
She's rolling your eyes. But I know you're scared Uhhuh <affirmative> because you, you see the resilience in the, in the people in that moment so clearly that you, you know, there's no going back. Yeah. And that's <laugh>, there's no going back. Yeah. So, alright. I'm not gonna say anything else because you've been so, so eloquent in how you are describing the moment. And I just, you know, hope my last question for you can be connected to this because there are gonna be a lot of people listening to our conversation who are not in Denver and who do not have a Mayor <laugh> or city librarian who is like, these are the political realities, but we are still committed to this work. So many people are retreating or using this opportunity, using this, this excuse really to retreat from, from equity and justice work that and their leaders, right?
Mia:
The leaders will use this opportunity. And there are so many library workers I know at, I've been in community with them for years who are not just committed. I mean, they really have done the work as you have, uh, as you're doing every day to model what it means to bring power to ourselves and to each other. And so you talked about before, right? In Denver you have the, the peace and the relationships and the wellness piece. But then there's also the, the policy piece, right? And I'm always thinking about it this way and this way. <laugh>
Naghem:
All connected, <laugh>
Mia:
All connected, but we have to do both, right? Yes. Like, it's not just this, and it's not just this, it's, so what I was just doing is pointing towards myself and to Naum right? As interpersonal. And then I was kind of creating an arc around my head to, to symbolize the systems and the structures in which we live, right? Yeah. And so there are folks out there who believe and are striving towards, uh, realizing justice in both of these ways every day. And they live in hostile areas or they're in a hostile, uh, library that's has hostile leadership to it, or fearful leadership. You know, I know you can't be where they are. But just going back full circle to the story you shared at the top of our interview and what it means to be both aware of the false refuge, but healing while leading. What is the advice that you have for people in libraries who are leading work in equity, diversity, inclusion, or trying to bring this work here now? Yeah. What, what advice do you have for how they should be in relationship and also, you know, these systematic goals and things that we wanna set and achieve?
Naghem:
Um, that's a big question that I find myself meeting every day. 'cause sometimes I need advice too, right? And I think the biggest thing is how do you build resilience to this? And the first thing with resilience is that it starts with self-care. And that you have to be able to take care of yourself first and understand where you want to go. And that in your journey, you need to rest and you need to take intentional pauses. And so that is the first piece of advice I give to anyone and something I need to listen to and adhere to every single day. Right? Take making sure you are well enough to keep, to keep you even moving forward. And it doesn't matter if it's five centimeters forward that day or five feet forward that day. Yeah.
Mia:
Yeah.
Naghem:
That's the first one I approach all of my work with a cultural humility framework and cultural humility is, is really three dimensions. The first one is self-awareness. The second one is leading with the trauma-informed systems of care. And the third one is strength-based. And so when you are finding people are pushing back with pushing back on EDI work, don't call it EDI work, it doesn't need to be EDI work. It could be anything else. Don't call it EDI work. If EDI scares people, don't call it EDI work at the library. There's a lot to do in terms of like the guiding principles for public libraries are in intellectual freedom and neutrality. That right there, if you understand your relationship right there to those two things, that is EDI work right there, right? Mm-hmm. We're trying to get to intellectual freedom. We're start, we're we're trying to, you know, address all of these barriers, um, that people have to intellectual freedom.
Naghem:
And so what are these barriers? Well, how are you a barrier to inte inte to your intellectual freedom? And so don't call it EDI work, just say we're looking at intellectual freedom <laugh>, right? Don't call it EDI work. Just say we're looking at neutrality and how we can show up. The thing I have for all public library folks is this. EDI work doesn't need to be called EDI work for act for actually to be EDI work or DEI work, right? What are we doing? We're trying to make folks feel, um, we are trying to create a sense of belonging where they act folks do belong. So what is stopping? What are the barriers, uh, to stopping belonging? And in terms of equity, what is it that people need? And so my advice to folks in the public, um, library realm, and I know there is a lot of pieces, articles on this, is to be very conscientious and intentional of how academic superiority shows up and creeps up in our work in terms of vocational awe.
Naghem:
And that is a conversation I'm having right now with, with with folks is like, right, we can talk about racism, sexism, Islamophobia, homophobia, transphobia, but what is the relationship that the public library has with their staff members? What are these a how was, how was the public library founded from the very beginning? Who was it created for? So rich white Christian men, and yes, we're here like 200, 300 years later, but those legacies of harm continue in our practices. And so if you look at the public library, um, and folks associate, you know, knowledge and wisdom and books and information with libraries. And so that does something to a person who works at the public library of like, oh yeah, I have access to give you to this wisdom, to this knowledge to this. And so it creates a savior complex and it creates a superiority mentality in terms of ego and academic superiority.
Naghem:
And that creeps up. And so if we critique that we are doing EDI work, if we're critiquing our superiority of like, yes, we have all of this information, I'm protecting it. This is the gateway to knowledge that sounds very stuck up to some folks, but I think that is a reality that rings true in a lot of the way we ap approach our work in a lot of our assumptions and expectations of people and the relationships they have with our collections, with our programs, even with wifi to access. And so if for the next four years, if you do nothing but question the relationship you have to intellectual freedom to neutrality and to academic superiority in terms of vocational awe and what you think of when you work at the public library. That right there is survival and doing EDI work. And so I think that is where, um, EDI work at the library, a dimension has to start of us really acknowledging those structures and those thought pieces exist and dismantling that. That's my advice.
Mia:
Call it what it is. Yeah. <laugh> talk about what you're actually doing versus, you know, putting everything under an EDI umbrella that, you know, is, it can be vague at best for folks, right. Just like what we're actually doing. Yeah. You know, as you were reminding me when you first started talking about it, I was thinking about did you ever see that movie Big Fat Greek wedding?
Naghem:
No.
Mia:
No. Okay. Well, there's this part in it where the fiance is being introduced to the aunt and the Greek family, and he's a vegetarian. And so the aunt is like, you're a vegetarian, you don't eat meat. Yeah. What do you mean you don't eat meat? And then she said, that's okay. I'll give you lamb <laugh> <laugh>. It's like one of my favorite lines in like any movie. And I think about that now. It's like, oh, well, you know, you don't like eating. I you don't like DEI, you don't like all these things. That's okay. We'll just talk about power. Yeah. <laugh>, you know, we'll just talk about what it's, what it's, you know. Yeah. And so, yeah, I really appreciate you just saying like, it's, there's, what are you doing when we're doing EDI work Uhhuh <affirmative>, just call it what it is, what that is, you know? Yeah.
Naghem:
Yeah. And, and, and if I may share one thing, the reason I'm honing in on intellectual freedom and neutrality Yeah. Is because this is personal to me, is because I was my own barrier to intellectual freedom. I was like, well, 'cause I was in charge of like community programming and I had a re I, I was doing great programs for folks who are Asian American, for folks who identified as indigenous Latinx. And I had a really hard time creating programming for Arab Americans and y and i I was like, what, what's happening here? What am I doing? What am my program is programming saying? And I found that scared 12-year-old in that false refuge sense of, I was through my programming, I was like, well, I wanna show like we're good immigrants, we're good refugees. We belong here. And that's harmful. That was so harmful to me.
Naghem:
And that was so harmful to these programs. And so I was limiting our access and our approach to Arab American communities because of my trauma. And because I was like, oh my God, I gotta show the people in the Denver public Library that folks who are Arab Americans, who are refugees, who are immigrants, that we we're good, we're good. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. And so it took that self-awareness piece of like, oh no. Right? I was my own barrier to my intellectual freedom. That scare 12-year-old was still showing up today trying to say, Hey, society, please don't be mean to me. I'm good. And that is why when I critique, it's through healing and it's through self-awareness that I was showing up like this too. So that's why I was like, focus on intellectual freedom and neutrality. What barriers is it giving us already
Mia:
So powerful. I mean, that served you Yeah. As a 12-year-old, it did serve you for survival, right? Yeah. But that's when, when we are not doing the healing around that, the things that no longer serves us, right, yeah. Limits us and in, and in positions of power limits our communities. Yes.
Naghem:
Yes. And so then I was like, oh, naum, no, no, let's stop here. <laugh>,
Mia:
No little naum. No, don't come over here,
Naghem:
<laugh>, you're safe. You're okay. I'm gonna take care of you. And also, um, we are going to celebrate the vibrant, beautiful, collective individual identities of what it means to be Arab, Arab American, Muslim, um, all of these beautiful, interconnected identities. And that was a liberating, empowering thing for me.
Mia:
Well, I think the word you've brought today has been a liberating and empowering thing for, for me. Thank you first. And I know for our listeners as well, Naga, I'm so grateful for you and your walk in the world and of course for today and our time together in this conversation. Thank you so much.
Naghem:
Thank you for having me and letting me sh share this little bit of my reality with you and with everyone and making that recommitment to our shared humanity. I think that's all that is recommitting to our humanity. Um, and that we are going to be okay as long as we are together and we fight together.
Mia:
Absolutely. Oh, thank you Naghem.
Naghem:
Welcome.
Produced by: Mia Henry and Cassaundra Sampson