Episode 9: Making Decisions Collectively with Alicia Bell
When we share power, we don’t have to take everything on ourselves…. ‘Many hands makes light work.’” - Alicia Bell
In this episode, Alicia Bell explains how slowing down to make decisions as a collective can enhance the experience of Shared Power and actually ensure the work happens more quickly.
“Slow is smooth, smooth is fast,” Alicia shares
And we know this requires collective trust: Can we trust the slow parts of the process… and trust that the foundational work will move us toward the future we envision?
This conversation dives deep into how fear of relinquishing control can keep us from sharing power in making decisions, why realignment is a necessary part of the process, and how to navigate and change societal expectations and assumptions through collective decision-making.
Listen to the Full Episode
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
[9:25] Why collective alignment matters for short- and long-term projects
[17:20] Four things Mia invites everyone to agree to before a workshop
[23:52] How we navigate (and change) societal expectations & assumptions
[32:25] The importance of humility & curiosity
[36:58] Alicia’s advice for leaders working toward shared decision-making
Featured On The Show:
Alicia Bell (they/she) is the Director of the Racial Equity in Journalism Fund at Borealis Philanthropy. Alicia is also a founder of Media 2070, an initiative to open up access to capital for media makers of color to tell their own stories.
Mia Henry (she/her) is the host of the Shared Power Podcast. Mia is the founder and CEO of Freedom Lifted, a training and coaching firm that supports leaders and organizations committed to justice and equity.
Enjoy the Show?
Don’t miss an episode! Subscribe to the Shared Power podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Amazon Podcasts.
Love what you’re hearing? Leave a rating & review on Apple!
Share with your friends on LinkedIn.
Want nuggets about justice, equity, and shared power in your inbox? Subscribe to our newsletter.
Full Episode Transcript:
Mia Henry: Welcome to the Shared Power Podcast, a limited series for organizations and leaders committed to collectively advancing justice and equity. I'm your host, Mia Henry. I'm the CEO of Freedom Lifted and the daughter of activists, educators, entrepreneurs, and survivors. I've had the honor of teaching, facilitating, and co-leading in nonprofits and schools for over two decades. I've learned a lot, but it hasn't always been easy. There are conversations that I had, or I wish I had, that create the conditions for more effective collective leadership. In this podcast, we will explore some of these conversations, diving deeply into topics that will help us learn to build trust, navigate conflict. And lead in partnership with one another. If you believe that relationship building is the foundation for effective work for justice, you are in the right place. Join me as we explore the ingredients of leading with shared power. Today's conversation will be with a person who makes me hopeful just by being in their presence, Alicia Bell. Alicia is the director of the Racial Equity and Journalism Fund at Borealis Philanthropy. They're also a founder of Media 2070, an initiative for reparations and restitution in our media systems. In this conversation, we will dive deep into how we approach pivotal moments in our activism work. We also talk about how to navigate and shift societal expectations through collective decision making, how fear based and urgent decisions can breed resentment, and why realignment is sometimes a necessary part of the growth process. Here's my conversation about sharing power in decision making with Alicia Bell.
MH: Welcome to the Shared Power Podcast on decision making.
Alicia Bell: Thank you.
MH: So I think I wanted to just start by having you tell us what you believe shared power and decision making is, at its heart.
AB: At its heart, I really think that shared power is, it's a sustainability. It's a place for softness and rest and continuity. And I feel that way. And because of that, it is a space for more joy. It's a space for more pleasure. It's a space for adventure and excitement. Because when we share power, we don't have to take everything on ourselves. We don't have to intentionally or unintentionally martyr ourselves in ways that folks may or may not want. It feels like the epitome “of many hands makes light work,” and because of that, it opens up space for folks to rest. It opens up space for folks to be able to exist and work longer because they are micro dosing rest and micro dosing work, so through that process, there's the ability to have more continuity, more sustainability, and then also when you don't have to be doing all of the things all of the time, it opens up that space for joy and pleasure and adventure and innovation. And so I really believe we all benefit when we figure out how to share power.
MH: Yeah. Thank you so much. You know, I'm always feeling that way too. I'm like, if we can carry this together, it doesn't weigh as much, you know? And I run into a lot of people who are very fearful of what they believe shared power looks like, particularly around decision making. I think that they – well, what I hear is it slows things down. It's, we're not going to agree. Like there's some kind of an assumption that there's going to be some conflict involved around it. What's holding people back from attempting approaches at sharing power and decision making?
AB: Yeah, I think it can be a lot of things. One part of it can be fear. There are a lot of reasons to fear relinquishing control, and that can be fearing relinquishing control because you have power and you have always had power and you've always had access and you've always had proximity, and so because that has been your normal, sharing a piece of that and making space can be scary. But also, if you are a person who has not historically had access to power, it can feel new and it can feel really tender and you have to hold it really tightly because if you give it up, then all kinds of things might happen. And there is a wide world out there that's full of anti-blackness and ableism and patriarchy that if you give up whatever control you have, opens up space for those things. Even though I would argue that those things can still impact you whether you relinquish control or not, but I think that those things contribute to the fear that folks can move with. For folks who have felt invisibilized, who have felt like they aren't seen or that their work isn't seen or visible, or that it matters, I think there can be a fear there that like, I have to be seen, I have to show up, folks have to know it was me. And that comes from a lot of lack of space, place, resource to process where that comes from. So I think there's a lot of reasons to fear sharing power and sharing power in decision making. And when folks get into spaces and places where they are in some sort of consensus decision making process or collective decision making process, because it's not the way that our society in many ways works, it's often experimental and it's often iterative. And so folks can have really excellent experiences, and really terrible experiences. I know for myself, I've been in both of those, where I've had really excellent experiences sharing power and decision making. And I've been a part of consensus processes that lasted for a year, and still resulted in things that were not ideal for everyone. So I've been there. And so if you've been in there, you're like, I'm never doing consensus again. I'm only making decisions with me and maybe one other person. That's it. That was too much. And I also get that because it's a lot. And then I think to the slowness piece, there is a like slow is smooth, smooth is fast. And so I do think there can be a slowness to first establishing, what are the relationships here? How do we trust each other? What are the principles? What is the vision? But when we slow down and do that work up front, then it means that we can move faster in the future. And I have to think there's an organization in the Bay Area, the Anti-Police Terror Project. And one of their organizers is the first time I'd ever heard that “slow is smooth, smooth is fast.” And it's really stuck with me, because I've just seen and experienced so many instances where when we don't put in that slow work up front, it gets glitchy, it gets conflicty, it's unsavory. And so, I do think it can feel slow, but because I've been through this and experienced it in different iterations, I know that the quickness is coming. And so I do think it takes a bit of embodiment to be able to trust that even if and when you're in the slow part of the process, that this part that's able to move a little smoother and a little bit more in a quicker paced way, that that part's coming.
MH: Yeah. I love that. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast, right? That's the way you said it. I love that. And it's so true. I mean, we've talked before about what we do up front, the work that we can do with each other upfront to ensure that smoothness. And we've talked about alignment, right? What does it look like for groups to get aligned? And I think because you are doing long haul work, you know, with media 2070 and in philanthropy, and you're also doing shorter term projects in partnership with a lot of movement partners. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit about what it looks like to approach alignment in a shorter term project. And then we can talk about maybe also with the long haul work, kind of the constant check-ins we may need to do with the long haul work.
AB:And honestly, they kind of end up being woven together and teeter back and forth. I think with short term projects, it's really important to do some quick visioning. I mean, that's for me, just like a foundation for any kind of organizing work that I'm a part of, any kind of organization building, project building. Sometimes we spend more time doing the vision and getting more explicit about what that is. And sometimes it's just about like, what do we hope to achieve together? What do we want to exist on the other side of this work? And I like doing that because it ends up being this north star of why are we even doing what we're doing? And so when things do get difficult, um, we can come back to that. And when we are in places where we're trying to make decisions, we can differentiate better between, oh, this isn't a good decision because it is in misalignment with our vision and our goals and our outcomes. Or I'm saying this isn't a good decision because I just can't participate and I really want to participate. And I'm going to be busy during that time. Like those are two different reasons to block a decision. But if we have that vision, then it gives us a North Star to be able to differentiate between those different kinds of reasons why folks might be hesitant or might be blocking something happening. And then from there, I think it's really important to know who's in the room and who – whether that's virtual Zoom room, Google Docs room, whatever that that thing is, or for real in the room – because then we're able to know who folks are bringing with them, and also what experiences they're bringing with them. Because how folks show up just immediately, or how they show up on paper might not be the fullness of who they are. I'm thinking about a friend of mine who on paper is a filmmaker and a documentarian, and has produced and created really wonderful films, has documented a lot of movement spaces, a lot of important social movement moments. And also is an installation artist and also is a project manager and also is trained as a journalist. And also is from Ohio. And is an auntie, like auntie/co-parent, you know? And so if you just kind of bring folks into a space and you're like, all right, you're the filmmaker, you're the organizer, you're the artist, then you don't get to know that depth. And so there's not space for folks’ fullness. And you don't expect things to show up or people feel kind of invisiblized or they feel like, oh, my wholeness isn't represented here. So beginning, we can get a sense of who's in the space, then it'll make it easier later on to be able to bring in that experience. And then I think just having some principles and values, like what are things we're committing to in this process, and how do we want to interact when those things don't happen? You know, I think at the beginning stage of a project, it's really easy to believe that everything's going to be wonderful, and that's the hope, is that everything's going to be wonderful, but I think when we're in that time, and we're able to talk about what happens if things go off the rails, or what happens if things end up being in misalignment, then it makes it easier in the moment to come back to that. And then just like throughout the process, just moving through and assuming good intention, practicing communication. I also like to practice observation. So I like to observe a situation a few times before I make a judgment on it. And setting boundaries for ourselves. We have to know how we want to show up. Like, do we want to be involved in every part of this decision? Do we not? And a lot of that depends on trust relationship, kind of what the goal is, what our expertise is, all of those things. And then I think for long term projects, it's all of that, but you have More time for it. And the other thing that I love about oscillating back and forth between the long haul work and the short term work is with the long haul work, you have more of an opportunity to iterate and practice. And so you just get better and better and better at being able to share power and being able to share decision making power. And so there's just more opportunity to really optimize that. And when I think about Media 2070, and when I think about the folks that I work with, with the Racial Equity and Journalism Fund, because I have built a cadence and a practice with them of sharing power and of having multiple folks involved in decision making. And because I have spent time getting to know those folks and they've spent time getting to know me, it creates this foundation from which the short term projects are easier. Like, I know that if any of the folks – if Delia or Jessica from the REG team – were like, this is what we need to do really quickly. I feel really confident that we could do that. And we have. And then similarly, like with the Media 2070 folks, when Colette's like, this is what we need to do, I'm like, bet. Got it. And we can kind of bounce back and forth with each other. And so I do love that long haul process, because it makes the short term projects easier. And it makes the iteration really lovely, but also because being in that space helps me better understand myself and how I show up and how I want to show up and how I want to be treated and how I want to interact with folks, so that in the other short term projects that maybe aren't connected to that at all, then I can still have that knowing in those spaces.
MH: Wow. There's so many things I want to ask you about what you just said. And it was all just so beautiful. Even when you just said now about moving, when your people ask you to move quickly, you all are able to move quickly. It goes back to that: slow is smooth and smooth is fast, right? Because you took time in the beginning of your relationship with one another to find out more than just your roles. More than just what vocations we happen to have right now, but who our people are, and what brings us to the work, and how we show up in multiple ways for multiple people, and how they'll speak to how our many ways of being speak to the way we approach our work because you've taken time to do that, when we take time to do that, then we can make things happen real fast together later. So that was such a wonderful example of that philosophy. And then when you were talking about the agreements, the alignment, all the different ways to create alignment in the beginning, too, I think are really important. Even when we feel like we have – I feel like even when there's only a 90 minute workshop or a two hour workshop, just taking some moments to propose some agreements. I know when I'm in proposal space and hoping to align everybody early on in even a short workshop, I have four things I ask everyone to do: be present, be curious, be generous, and be brave. And the way we can dig into those, you know, I talk a little bit about what those things mean to me, and allow people to talk about what those things mean to them. And they're easy reminders for us to give one another throughout the time we're together. If someone is maybe going a little long, we're like, be generous with the time. You know, if someone is hesitant and needs some encouragement, we can tell them we want to be brave. We invite them to be brave, right? And so, being curious about how we're feeling in our own bodies around the tension we may have and being curious about others, when we may feel tension with what they say. So just these four things. When I invite people to do those four things, it's amazing how much smoother our limited time together can go.
MH: Just a quick break to note that the Shared Power Podcast is sponsored by Freedom Lifted and our flagship training program, Justice at Work. Justice at Work offers blended learning and professional development for organizations and individuals who are strengthening their commitment to justice and equity in their workplaces and in their communities. This training combines discussions with online modules that teach frameworks and critical history to help you examine the relationship between identity and power. You'll even have opportunities to join live group discussions facilitated by me, Mia Henry. Go beyond diversity and inclusion to find your role in building a more just and equitable world. Learn more and sign up at freedomlifted.com.
MH: So I think sometimes we believe that setting agreements and telling stories and getting to know one another, again, people fear the time that it'll take because they're operating under urgency. And we talk about urgency coming up a lot in the white supremacy characteristics. And I'm always saying, you know, it's not just urgency because some of our stuff is urgent. Sometimes, we got to move fast. And so it's not about urgency just for the sake of urgency, and we need to not acknowledge that we have things to attend to quickly, but it's urgency at the expense of relationships. That's the, that's where the oppression comes in. When there's space for that, you know? And so again, it speaks to that same piece of we're moving fast without taking time to know one another, and to build the trust that we need and that will undermine all the work we're trying to do down the line. It's like a guarantee, actually. It's actually promised. This is not going to work out if we don't trust each other.
AB: Yeah, absolutely. Like one of the things I see is that there ends up being a resentment too, where the longer you go without having alignment on the principles or the vision or whatever, there is like some sort of resentment that it breeds.
MH: Yeah. Well, when you were talking earlier about how doing the long haul work, you're able to practice and iterate, and I believe even refine how we're able to make decisions together. So we get better at it because we're practicing it. There's the other side of that too. Well, we're practicing not sharing space and sharing power and whatever we do, often we get good at. If we are feeling that scarcity, feeling like we need to control the situation, not talking through the spaces of tension in honest ways, not telling stories, just always like again, moving at the expense of relationships, then we'll get good at that. And it'll be harder and harder to walk it back. So yeah, I really appreciate so much of what you're bringing of just the practice.
AB: Yeah. Well, and I think other pieces that, in that long term work, we can't make assumptions that it's always going to be that way. So I think making space and time for relationships and for gathering and all of those things the whole time is super important to check in again about principles, to check in again about vision. Making sure that those things still matter is super important because we also – I don't want to take folks for granted. And I know just by virtue of being in long term relationships with whether it's partnerships, friendships, family relationships, people change. And people learn, people grow, people shift. So the longer the work, I think the more and more we also just have to make sure we're like – and that's why I love doing that. I love eating with people. I love a meal together. I love a coffee because I just want to – we have to keep getting to know each other and all of the different iterations of who we are.
MH: And it's not taking time away from the work, it is the work. So you talked about how this is not just about work relationships, but it also absolutely applies to our romantic relationships, our connections with our family and our friends, right? Shared power, shared decision making. Oh my goodness. I have to do this every time we plan a trip. Or even a meal in this house, you know, and it's amazing how talking about what we're going to eat can go a lot of different ways. Sometimes it’s a smooth decision, and sometimes it’s not. So how have you navigated these issues in your personal life, particularly around assumptions? And expectations that people have when we know we do have to figure something out together.
AB: Yeah, you know, it absolutely comes up. I 100% agree with the trips and the meals and the music you're gonna listen to in the car or not.
MH: We have this whole share the DJ in the car. So we all have to rotate.
AB: I think one of the ways that I see it show up in my life currently is when it comes to maybe even like a house project or a garden project. Like missing something or making something and we're having to decide, like, what do we prioritize? What is the thing that we need to do immediately? What do we have the capacity for immediately? What are we going to do long term? How are we going to build towards that? What are we going to contribute to building towards that together? And then making those decisions all the time. I'm thinking about the way that I think about this a lot with my nibblings, who I'm raising. And there are times where they really want to listen to things and do things that I really have no interest in doing whatsoever. And I try to make space, if and when it makes sense, really try to make space for that. Because I know that in a parenting-child relationship, there are a lot of ways that I make decisions, and a lot of ways that I have power just by virtue of my role. And so being able to find moments to share that is really important, because I want them to practice that. I think also being able, with my partner, to be able to share decision making power, to share power in front of them is really necessary so that they can learn that over time. And doing that when things are easy and doing things when things are hard. So I want them to see what it looks like to move through a generative conflict. I want them to know that that's possible. That conflict doesn't have to just be like, it's over. And we're yelling and we're fighting and everything is terrible and chaotic. I want them to know that it's possible to move through that generatively. And then I think that one of the ways I see it show up in my partnership is like – we'll be out in the world, and because my partner is a more masculine presenting person, folks are often reading them as, like, the decision maker. It just came up recently when we were in Lowe's, and because I've been making brooms, and when we were in Lowe's, we were getting a copper cutter, just like a little tool used to cut copper piping. And the person at the store, Cecil – lovely, lovely man. We go back to this Lowe's often. So, you know, I'm not saying like Cecil is the worst. Cecil is very lovely. The first time we were there, we were getting this copper cutter and Cecil looks over at my partner and is like, “So you know what to do, right? Like, you know how to work this. You know, you know what it is.” And they were like, “I'm just the sous chef in this situation. I just, I actually have no idea how to make a broom, and I'm not the one using this copper cutter, and I just am here to help.” And they were like, “Uh, okay. Okay.” And then I was like, “Yeah, yeah, it's fine. I know how to use it. I can do the things.” And now, because I mentioned we do go back to that same Lowe's because it's the one nearby, Cecil asked us both questions. And doesn’t just assume that one of us knows things. And I still think they have a closer relationship with my partner just because of masculinity, but they don't show up the same way that they did initially. And I really appreciate the way that that modeling, whether it's modeling in the house or modeling in the world, how that can impact the environments that we exist in.
MH: Yeah, I love that so much, that story, because you're both the modeling, but also the belief in Cecil. We believe in Cecil. We're going to invite him. We believe Cecil can grow and reset intention. So we're going to invite him to do that and then see how he shows up differently. And he does show up differently. So I think that's part of it as well, as it's not going to be easy and fluid and we can't expect everyone to kind of step out of how they've been socialized and approach from the very first interaction. Approach everything in this really fair and just way. We've all been impacted by these assumptions around gender and race, and sexuality and disability. Like this does impact how people interact with us and who believe has power in relationships. And we can be the most well-intentioned people and make a lot of mistakes because those assumptions sneak in. Part of what I hear you saying around embracing a shared decision making model is we have to be ready for that. We have to be ready for us to not do it right. Yeah, how you said it earlier in our conversation, I love how you opened, where you were saying just when we're already at the beginning, when we're at the beginning and we're most hopeful, that's when we should – when things go off the rails. And I say “when,” not “if,” and we can be hopeful because I am hopeful. I believe it's all going to turn out fine in the end, but it's not going to all be fine on the journey. So, we gonna mess up, we gonna make some messed up assumptions, we gonna say some messed up things, we're gonna think things that we shouldn't be thinking, and we're gonna show up in ways that we're not proud of. That happens. And it's gonna happen, yes, because we're socialized, or sometimes we're just having a bad day. And we're fatigued or what have you. So I always talk about, we will fall short, you know? So how do we establish what we intend, what we believe in? How do we establish in a space of hope? How we will be with one another as we're leading together. And I do believe decision making is leadership. Like leadership is fundamentally about decision making. That's what it is. So leaders have to make decisions. So when we're talking about collective leadership, we're talking about collective decision making. Truly. That's what it is. So how are we going to make decisions together is the beginning, middle, and end of almost every project and everything we do. Yeah, I love this. You know, you talking about how it shows up in your personal life because we know we love our people. We know we love our family. We know we love our nibblings, right? We love our bonus children. You know, so if I'm starting from that space and we have time in our like family meetings to kind of go over and check in with things too – you and I've talked about that as well. The how do you check in on the alignment as you go? The only way to check in, though, is that if from the beginning we have made some agreements with one another, and those are what you talked about before – the North Star.
AB: And I think the other part of it is – I really loved when you lifted up that room guiding principle of being curious. Because I think that's a huge part of it throughout, whether it is personal life, professional life, anything – that maintaining a kind of a learning posture and a curiosity is really important. And then being able to respond to what you learn is really important. But the thing I've also realized, especially doing mass-mobilization work and mass-movement work, is the ability of having concentric circles. And one of the things for the past few years, I've been doing a lot of visioning on the future of journalism with folks. And we've also been trying to build this roadmap of how do we get there? What are the different pathways we take to getting to that vision? And we had tried so many times to do that in the same collective of people that we did the visioning with. And I thought it wasn't coming together because of something I was doing wrong as a facilitator. And I was like, oh, I just have to facilitate this better. Like maybe we're not getting to the roadmap because there's something I'm missing as a facilitator. But then after doing that a few times, and then also working in a circle of people and kind of facilitating with a circle of people and planning with a circle of people, we were all having the same experience. And so what we realized is that it wasn't any one of us as a facilitator, it was that some folks are better at visioning just from nothing. And some folks are better at building and envisioning when they have a proposal or a foundation to work from. And so, that's one of the things that we've started doing, is figuring out where are the spaces and places where, from nothing, something can be collectively created. And, where are the spaces and places where there's a small group of us that needs to have some sort of proposal or some sort of idea or foundation that folks can build off of, because not everybody is in the practice of building in that way. And being able to go back and forth between that has been really important. And it's also been so much more helpful because it brings in different people who thought they weren't – like other folks were thinking like, oh, maybe I'm just not the visioning person because we also weren't getting to the roadmap. So participants were like, oh, maybe it's me and I'm like, maybe it's me, the facilitator. But then actually, once we shifted practice a little bit to be like, there's different ways of showing up, then it made space for everyone to show up as they are. And so really moving through that has helped me understand that in addition, like just because of the different configurations and spaces and environments and settings and context that folks have and just ways of being, there are a lot of different ways to share power and a lot of different ways to share decision making that can can be collective, but can be like folks really feel themselves in it and see themselves in it. And not every single process has to look the same.
MH: Oh, I love it. Not every process needs to look the same. And I love how you described how everyone was like, is it me? Is it me? Because that kind of curiosity combined with self-reflection gives us an opportunity to switch how we're doing things or shift and stop, pause, reflect and shift. Versus, I've been in spaces where “Is it you?” is the question. “What’s wrong here? Who’s fault is it?” And that is not generative, right? So that's part of it too, that humility and curiosity, right? How that gives us an opportunity to try on different ways of doing it. There's no script. I wanted to just end by asking if there was any other advice you have for folks out there trying to create this space for shared decision making.
AB: I think that the only thing that keeps coming to mind is that what exists on the other side of sharing power is so beautiful. Like, the things that happen because we're able to flock and we're able to – sometimes we're at the front of the flock, sometimes we're at the middle, sometimes we're at the back. When we learn how to do that kind of movement, then we get to be around longer and we get to see so many things that are beautiful when we figure out how to… I think because I'm doing reparations work and media reparations work a lot, I think about how beautiful the things that get created on the other side of reparations are. When we repair harm and we open up space for stronger relationships and deeper relationships and trust. Like the things on the other side of that are incredible. And I know that because I've seen it. I just came back from helping facilitate and supporting the creation of a black future news stand, which the question guiding that was “What is a media that loves black people on the other side of reparations?” And it was beautiful. The work was beautiful. The things folks offered were beautiful. We can only get to these places when we learn how to share power, how to share decision making, and when we do the work that allows for us to relinquish the fear and relinquish the control. Because the things that make sharing power and sharing decision making possible, like the work we have, to self work we have to do, that humility you're talking about, that self reflection, that processing, that makes other parts of our lives better as well. And so I know that I am better. And other aspects of my life because I've been able to move through these spaces with folks. And because I know how to back myself, and I know how to be curious and observational. And so there's just so much, there's so much beauty there. And I love that. As I think sometimes when folks think about change or transformation, it can feel messy and chaotic, but I also am holding… There's a woman, an organizer in Charlotte who passed away a few years ago, Dr. Ophelia Garment Brown, who said “Never waste a chaos.” And so in the midst of all this chaos, I'm like, how do we not waste these various chaotic moments and how do we find the beauty on the other side? So that's really what keeps me coming back to this kind of work.
MH: Thank you for sharing that with this conversation and through all of our time that we're able to spend together. Alicia, I appreciate you. We're going to put all of your – you have a lot of things you have touched and you have been a part of, and you've linked arms with so many different projects and people. So we're going to put some of them in the show notes for sure. Thank you. Thank you!
AB: Thank you.
MH: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Shared Power Podcast. This podcast is a production of Freedom Lifted, a company that provides training, facilitation, and coaching for leaders rooted in justice and equity. It is produced and edited by Cassandra Sampson at It's 97. Production support also provided by Alicia Tate, Amber Kinney, Alicia Bunger, and the AK Collective. For more information about our work, visit freedomlifted. com. Or follow us at Freedom Lifted on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn. Join us next time as we continue to unlock the ingredients for leading with shared power.