Episode 2: Shared Power vs. DEI w/ Lisa Marie Pickens

Written By Freedom Lifted

“There is no limit to power: The world is better when we ALL have power… and we have to recognize this, even if society doesn’t.” - Lisa Marie Pickens

Why do so many DEI initiatives fall short? What does shared power look like in organizations, even the homogenous ones? Can a shared power analysis reframe and expand DEI work? 

These are the questions Mia explores in this episode with nonprofit consultant, Lisa Marie Pickens. 

Mia and Lisa Marie discuss the problems with general DEI initiatives, the day-to-day practicing of shared power through collaborative learning and modeling, why Shared Power is for EVERYONE in your organization, and how to sustain this internal shift long-term.

Plus, Lisa Marie shares some inspirational examples of nonprofits that have completely transformed their understanding and practice of DEI work to embrace Shared Power.

Listen to the Full Episode

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

  • [5:29] Why DEI is not the starting point

  • [17:35] How transformation is possible when you model Shared Power

  • [31:15] Why Shared Power should involve everyone (& the problem with internal power struggles in social justice orgs)

  • [43:59] About the Radical Shift Academy: a Black & Brown disrupter lab

  • [55:23] Lisa Marie’s advice for organizations seeking to share power

Featured On The Show:

Lisa Marie Pickens (she/he/they-respectfully) is the Owner and Principal Consultant for ARISE Consulting, Inc. With over 20 years of experience in a variety of nonprofit organizations, Lisa Marie supports capacity building and collaborative engagement in social change work through her relationship-based consulting firm Arise Consulting, Inc.

Mia Henry (she/her) is the host of the Shared Power Podcast. Mia is the founder and CEO of Freedom Lifted, a training and coaching firm that supports leaders and organizations committed to justice and equity. 

Enjoy the Show?

Full Episode Transcript:

Mia Henry (MH): Welcome to the Shared Power Podcast, a limited series for organizations and leaders committed to collectively advancing justice and equity. I'm your host, Mia Henry. I'm the CEO of Freedom Lifted, and the daughter of activists, educators, entrepreneurs, and survivors. I've had the honor of teaching, facilitating, and co-leading in nonprofits and schools for over two decades. I've learned a lot, but it hasn't always been easy. There are conversations that I had or I wish I had, that create the conditions for more effective collective leadership. In this podcast, we'll explore some of these conversations, diving deeply into topics that will help us learn to build trust, navigate conflict, and lead in partnership with one another. If you believe that relationship building is the foundation for effective work for justice, you are in the right place. Join me as we explore the ingredients of leading with shared power. Today's conversation will feature my friend and colleague, Lisa Marie Pickens. Lisa Marie is the owner and principal consultant for Arise Consulting Inc. Now, Lisa Marie has worked toward capacity building and collaborative engagement in the nonprofit sector for more than 20 years. And together today we talk about a lot. We go in about the problems with many diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives, or DEI. We also break down the day-to-day practices of shared power and how we can sustain the shift in our organizations. And we talk about why shared power provides a path for everyone in an organization to lead. Plus, Lisa Marie shares some inspirational examples of nonprofits that have completely transformed their understanding and practice of DEI work to embrace shared power. I hope you enjoy.

MH: I knew interviewing you, Lisa Marie, was gonna be important for this podcast. Thank you so much for saying yes.

Lisa Marie Pickens (LMP): You are so welcome.

MH: Yeah. You know, throughout the series here, I'm gonna be talking about, you know, what I, how I define shared power, but having you on here, you know, I can't not ask you how you define shared power for yourself and then for, for organizations.

LMP: Yeah. So for myself, it's really recognizing that there is no limit to power. That we all can have it, and that the world is better when we all have it. It's not a commodity that is scarce and really trying to operate from that space in, in every interaction that I have. Right? Whether I'm interacting with the folks that are walking along the street in my engagement with them, to the people that are picking up my debris from the streets and sanitation department. Again, recognizing the significance of their power, right? And why it's important for them to have power. And I use that example for a real reason. I moved in 2019 to a row of townhouses, and it turned out that the developer had not notified owners that our alley was private. And so prior to my arrival, the streets and san had been coming up the alleyway picking up the garbage, and it became clear at some point to the city that it was a private alley, and that either we needed to arrange for a private pickup, or we needed to roll our garbage cans out to 43rd street. Right? And so the, the garbage can driver made a decision that's stupid. He just, for him, that was a stupid idea. And he was, he was like, no, ma'am, put your can back. I'm just, I'm gonna come through and pick up your can down the alley. You do not have to. So ultimately, we did have to end up doing that. But again, it, he had a sense of his own power.

MH: Yes.

LMP: Right? That something in the system did not make sense to him.

MH: Right.

LMP: And that he was going to step out, right? And really demonstrate his own decision making. Right? That didn't just not make any sense to him. And that until he couldn't do it, he would continue to do it, right? And so that's what I mean.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: And I was so grateful to him, right? For that, not that it's the biggest deal to have to wheel the can down there, but again, these are reminders. They seem very simple.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: These are reminders of what it means to share power and for everyone to recognize that they have power, autonomy, authority, and that they can make decisions, right? And so, for me, that's what it's about, right? And really operating and engaging with folks from that space, supporting that space. And then when we come to nonprofits, really getting them to even consider that as a concept, right? So often, you know, again, as you alluded to, people really are kind of stuck on this notion of DEI, right? But from my perspective, organizationally, that's not the starting point. It really is talking about power. Who within the organization is seen to have power, who is not seen to have power? What do, how do people think about this notion of shared power? Where do the, where does the organization really want to go with this as a concept beyond the notion of DEI, right? And, and the reason the the shared power is so important and, and the clarity for me has come from working with organizations where people are very homogeneous, right? Because we often think about DEI as only relevant when the organization has some huge differences, perhaps generational, racial, ethnic, differences in gender identity, and so forth and so on. But what, how do we kind of conceptualize these notions when an organization is homogeneous? Right? So, for example, I do a lot of work with black and brown organization. It's an area where I really believe I can make a difference. It's where I wanna do my work. And often it, there are, there are social justice organizations, right?

MH: Yes. Yeah.

LMP: So it's even more critical internally to think about these notions. And so they really often present and, and work from the space of share power externally.

MH: Yes.

LMP: And we wanna make sure those most impacted are involved and have say so in the organization. Right? And, and I have some clients who really live that beautifully. I work with the Chicago Torture Justice Center, and they are part of the reparations ordinance related to Commander Berge and the torture that he and his underlings perpetrated on black and brown folks during a certain period, right? By the police. Right? In Chicago. And they truly operate from the space of shared power.

MH: Yes.

LMP: In terms of board members being survivors, directors who have created programming serving as the leadership of those programs. Right? Staff are fully survivors, are any fully integrated into the staff of the organization. They take very seriously how they make decisions collaboratively. Right? And so, again, there are organizations that are really operating from that space and notion of shared power. But that is unusual.

MH: Mm hm.

LMP: It is extremely unusual. When you begin to talk to people about shared power in organizations they get very nervous. The board, the board especially gets nervous. Yeah. What, what do you mean? What do you mean? They're gonna want. No, all the assumptions that are made around that are fascinating. That people want complete control over everything. Right. And

MH: It's that, it's that scarcity mentality that's the nervousness comes from, oh, no.

LMP: Right?!

MH: We about to lose control.

LMP: Right?!

MH: And a lot of times I'm like, you don't even have any control. Things are, or you things are not right, right now. So what do you have to be nervous about? You know, even just seeing shared power as an opportunity...

LMP: Yes.

MH: ...to lighten the load that a lot of people feel that they have in order to make sure everything is right. Right? To be in control of all these things. I'm like, share the control. Shared power means sharing control, sharing responsibility, shared responsibility, sharing, you know, visibility, sharing all these things. We should be, we should be wanting to move to that place. But because people see power as either or, or like we said, scarce. Right? And especially a board, because there's so much socialization around boards of directors having power.

LMP: "Boards in Nonprofits" in particular needs its own podcast. Right. We need a paradigm shift in terms of the role of boards, how they're structured, what they do. We'll say that, but, but, but, but beginning to have that conversation with them about shared power as it relates to the ED, perhaps their co-directors, the, the staff, right? And even at the line staff level. Right? 'Cause sometimes they parse it out, you know, the, the higher level leadership can have interaction with the board, but not, not line staff. And, you know, they make all the decisions and, and simultaneously often don't know the real content. So sometimes they're making decisions in a vacuum as opposed to in, in a shared way that they can really benefit from the full range of knowledge that exists on the staff. Right?

MH: Yes.

LMP: And so, absolutely. That's a beginning place, at least right. In my work with nonprofits and particularly the board stuff, it's a beginning place. And there's a need to go even further about a true shift in that, that component of nonprofits that is boards. Right. So...

MH: Yes. So, so Lisa Marie, give me an example of, well, give me an example of an organization that initially was thinking about DEI and you moved them to thinking about shared power and how that happened.

LMP: So, yeah, really interesting because he kept, one, he kept talking about DEI and that that's something that they don't really have to concern themselves. It's an all-black organization. Right. He said, until now it's something we hadn't really thought about, or we are already diverse. And I'm like, Hmm, but are you really? And really, my questions are about shared power, which is very different than DEI. And he's like, yeah, we haven't even begun to broach that. I'm like, yeah, because I think you've assumed that you're working from that space. And it, you know, the responses to the question suggests very clearly that you're not working from that space, because it's not really a part of your, you know, kind of historical thinking about your organization and so forth and so on. So it'll, it's going to be that evolution with them is going to be very, very interesting. And the ED, you know, makes an excellent point, which is also a part of the conversation people have to have about, have about shared power, is it also means shared responsibility.

MH: Yes.

LMP: Right? So now you can no longer, right? So once you make that shift, you are part of it. So you can't just look to the ED and say, well, you didn't do that. You can't just look to the, your supervisor and say, well, you or you can't just look to the board. You are part of that now. Right. Which, again, we, if we are sharing the power, we're sharing the responsibility as well.

MH: Right.

LMP: And so that's a really important piece to talk about in addition to the shared power. Yeah.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: So, yeah. So I'm excited to have this conversation.

MH: So when you said he, that, that they were diverse. So he was saying that because they were all-black organization?

LMP: Black, queer, they’re queer identified people involved, there are people that run the gamut that are, you know, already credentialed as teachers. They're people at the beginning of their kind of career, or people that are directly, you know, they run what it is an arts organization. And so they actually have volunteers from the community that are part of this. Right? So that's the type of diversity, right, and inclusion he was talking about. And yet, that's one part of it. Right?

MH: Right. Right.

LMP: But the question is, how are you really sharing power, right? Among that range, right? And so, you know, I think sharing power can be very complicated for people, right?

MH: Yeah.

LMP: I know that the ED in this particular case really does want to share power, and yet the organization hasn't been entrenched in that. So they haven't been operating from that space to create that type of, the type of scaffolding and structure that's needed to ensure that people really can step up and say, oh, yeah, I, I can really make this decision. I have the authority, I have the competence, I have the skillsets. I've been supported to do this as part of my work at this organization. So it was interesting that we were able to shift. And while he certainly believes in shared power, he knows that he, the all of the pieces aren't there. Right?

MH: Yeah. Yeah.

LMP: Because they haven't really thought about it before. So it's like a bit of a new concept for them. And I think this notion is a new concept for most organizations, right? And it's very interesting. I, somebody I was talking to recently who said, well, you know, I don't have any power.

MH: Oh, I know this is, yeah.

LMP: And so I really had to walk her through. So here are all the people that you sit on the rung above in terms of how you are navigating this world. "Oh, I never thought about that."

MH: Or even the conditions you have control over give you power as well. So there's like that hierarchical piece. But I work with a lot of public libraries, and I find, you know, when they're at the bottom of the organizational hierarchy that plays tricks on people because they think they don't have any power, 'cause they're only looking at it from that perspective. And maybe they're looking at social identities as well, 'cause you know, when I talk about social power, and we've talked about this before, it's when you have it, you have resources, voice, visibility, and safety. Right? There's a lot of other things. But just get to that

LMP: Absolutely.

MH: Like, where do you have resources? Where are you seen? Where are, when are you heard? And how are you safe? And then you'll be able to see where you have power?

LMP: And what do you have access to?

MH: And what do you have, and right, access, support, connections, all of those things are social power. So when we talk to the, you know, frontline staff of the public libraries, I'm like, you're the most visible people in the library. Don't abdicate the power you have to...

LMP: That's right. That's right.

MH: ...you know, affect people's whole experience and memories around this  important institution.

LMP: Absolutely. Absolutely.

MH: So. Yeah. Teaching people to reclaim or even acknowledge the power they have.

LMP: Acknowledge, reclaim, rethink it all. Right.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: To really, it is really about a paradigm shift

MH: Yes. Yes.

LMP: which is part of the radical shift academy, right, because right, which we'll talk about in due course, but it really is about the shift. We've got to get people away from what have been kind of the historical ways of approaching this that clearly have not shifted very much. Yeah. I mean, I think that's what we must recognize at this point. It hasn't shifted in the same, in the ways we need it to. So why not shift and begin to really talk about power?

MH: Yes.

LMP: Right. Yeah.

MH: So, so yeah, I hear you. You know, shared power is a practice as a way of engaging and interacting with others in the world, is being able to be one's authentic self, right? Fully participating, you know, in decision making.

LMP: Right. It also is, is a benefit to you as an individual, right?

MH: Yeah.

LMP: To, there's so much we can learn from each other if we recognize, right, this notion of shared power, right? So some people operate from a space that you can only learn from certain people, right? My parents, they didn't have this language, right. But they told me intelligence was about my ability to learn from anyone, including, and back then the word was wino, right? So they didn't say somebody who had a problem with alcohol, right? But they said that was my responsibility to listen and hear, because there was knowledge there, right? And so that's, that's the space that I work with my clients from. I really believe that they are the content experts. So I'm going in modeling sharing power by sharing power with them.

MH: Yes.

LMP: I'm your partner in this work. I'm not an expert on your particular organization. You are the expert. I'm the expert in terms of facilitation, creating space for the type of dialogue, gathering the type of data we need to look at together. But you will do the work...

MH: You have to do the work, yeah.

LMP: ...on reviewing that data, right? So again, back to the group that we, that I shared information with, and this is a repeating pattern. Oh my God, it's so much data to look at. It's a very long organizational assessment and includes all the typical elements of an, of an organization, a nonprofit, right? The various domains, strategic planning, the board, fundraising, financial management, right? So it's really kind of a best practice tool where you're trying to kind of sense where people, what people's understanding of these practices are. Right? And so they're statements, and then you can respond whether you agree this is true, completely true, somewhat true, I - neither true nor false, I don't know, right? Is okay. Don't agree. Right? And so you begin to get a sense of kind of the organization's collective knowledge about all of these areas that make up, right, the organization. And then I have a totally separate section that is about shared power, inclusion, and equity. But throughout the assessment, I infuse those questions, right? And then I do a bit of a comparison between their responses where they don't know that that's really what I'm asking about. And the section where I am asking those questions directly to see if there's some kind of artificial trying to make the organization look better in that one section versus where it's kind of kinda sprinkled throughout the assessment, right?

MH: Yeah.

LMP: And so it's just very interesting to have people begin to have the power to look at their own data and make sense of it. You spoke of this before. Often the consulting engagement is come in and tell you what the problem is and come in and tell you what the solution is. I don't believe in that. How does that share power?

MH: Yeah. Yeah.

LMP: How does that support organizational growth? And how does that, that's beginning with a deficit as though people can't look at the same data that I can look at and make sense of it, right? Give meaning to it.

MH: Yes.

LMP: React to it and make some decisions about what it means. And therefore, here are the areas we need to really prioritize over the next year, perhaps over the next two years, perhaps the next three years. And here's some of the ways we think we should approach each of those, right? So I asked them to delve in, in those ways. Right? And it was very interesting. I will say this particular group that I'm working with, this was the first time this happened, and it was very exciting. While there was some struggle around the notion of shared power and linking it to DEI in ways that I don't agree with. This particular group was committed to continuing their first review outside of my session with them. So they're gonna take time either today or tomorrow or Friday, but, and to keep looking, continuing that kind of first review of the data very broadly, right? They were very excited to dig in.

MH: Yes. Yes.

LMP: And so that's very encouraging to me, right? Again, they're the experts.

MH: They're the experts.

LMP: What does this, what do you know this therefore means for your organization, right?

MH: Yeah.

LMP: And we'll do the same process with, so we begin with a committee that's made up of folks from across the organization. We have a mom whose young person participates in the programming on this committee, right? So somebody would direct, you know, a different lens, right? As well as board members as well as staff that cut across the organization. Again, modeling shared power, right? Why wouldn't you have the full range of people that make up the stakeholders look at the data and, and do some interpretation, some analysis of that data, right? And then we'll move from that to meeting with the board, going through that data again. Why wouldn't we let them look at the data, staff their own session to look at the data as well as volunteers. Let's have a session with them to have them look at the data, and then we'll bring them all together, right? And probably it'll be the first time. And for many organizations, it's the first time all stakeholders have come together to really take time and assess the organization and assess what the needs are, right? And so all of that is both process, which is product, and modeling shared power throughout the process from beginning to end, right? So again, it, it's as important, right, to talk about shared power as it is to demonstrate it and to have people practice it...

MH: Practice it, right.

LMP: ...as we're doing this work together, right? And so when people ask, well, how do you do this? So much of it is in the modeling. So much of it is built into the process itself. And people often don't even recognize it, but you begin to hear them say things very differently over time. It's another organization that I am in the midst of strategic planning with right now. And I began with an organizational assessment, moved to values development, and then strategic planning. And some people have been consistent across the three groups that led that work with me. And some people have been different, right? And just to watch the change in people in particular, who may have participated in more than one of the groups is fascinating. I'll, I'll describe. The organization kept apologizing to me about this one person, older white gentleman, a bit of a naysayer, a bit of a fly in the ointment type of person. I had no problem. He and I have worked together in the organizational assessment phase, and now we are in the strategic planning thing. Our last meeting, he and I were finishing our sentences.

MH: Wow.

LMP: They were texting me, what's, what's going on here? Transformation.

MH: Yes. Yeah.

LMP: Digging into the process, being willing to be a bit vulnerable. Admit, I'm getting a bit older. I, I'm not up on things. Perhaps I can think about this differently, right? But it requires the depth of engagement, not a pop in training, again, which unfairly, I overly think of DEI as that, right, and I know that practitioners can and often do more than the one pop in training.

MH: Yes. But I, I have a bias too. It's okay. I have a bias. b

LMP: But I do have a bias. I must be honest.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: When we're talking about change and paradigm shifts.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: We're not, we're talking, because it took a long time for this particular approach to take hold and take root. It requires depth to root it out.

MH: Yeah. Yeah.

LMP: And so - yes.

MH: And that's what the shared power really allows for...

LMP: Yes.

MH: ...and invites people into a long haul process, which is what movements need and deserve.

LMP: That is correct.

MH: I think DEI signifies quick, dirty, fix it, fix what's wrong, and, and,

LMP: And often at the, and often at the individual level.

MH: At an individual level or yeah someone has to be, we have to figure out who the problem is, or even with that, you know, even just the organization being like, we have an issue with this person. You know?

LMP: And that's what I said to him.

MH: An issue has come up or somebody did something messed up in the organization, so now we need DEI, right?

LMP: Yeah.

MH: As like an ointment or what have you. Versus just a whole way of living differently. So,  

LMP: Absolutely.

MH: and, and building differently. And then being in, you know, invitational not just to conversations, but into a process that allows people to be vulnerable and be open and drop those nerves...

LMP: Yes.

MH: ...around the scarcity in embracing what is possible. And you, like you said, being able to model it, you know, you model it and then you let them practice it. So then they're modeling it for everyone else as people onboard an organization. It's just a different way of being.

LMP: It is a very different way.

MH: It's a different way of being. And it's so big.

LMP: And people, mistakes are gonna be made.

MH: Yeah. Mistakes will be made and it's gonna be okay.

LMP: That's part of the process.

MH: It's part of the process. The learning comes from our mistakes. A friend of mine was saying that the other day. She was like, I don't even learn anything until I'm on the ground. That's what she said. I'm laying out, you know. So that's where we need to go.

LMP: And, that's worn out even for inventors.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: It's the mistakes they made.

MH: It's the mistakes they made.

LMP: They will learn to, to go in and create that final product that we now have, right?

MH: Yes.

LMP: That's,

MH: That's the mistakes. People want the innovation without the, the mistakes and the pain. I was like, you don't get to do great things when you don't mess up. You know? It, it's almost like, when do you know, when do we get to mess up? What do our, our, our mistakes? And, and I don't even say, you know, just the, when things don't go as planned, you know, I don't even like to call it failure. It's just when things don't go like we thought they would go,

LMP: But, but if we, if we see that as part of a process, a cycle.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: Right? We do some learning, we put some new practices in place, we practice them, we reflect on how those practices, right? So again, creating those benchmarks

MH: Yes.

LMP: So that we are paying attention to how we really are sharing power, how we really are living our values. Right? So we must have benchmarks. That's the other piece that is imperative to this prospect. There has to be benchmark. There has to be a way for people to pay attention to how they're sharing power, how they're living the values of the organization so that they can, and they must be things that are observable

MH: Yes. And they, yes.

LMP: Right? It can't be, not, it has to be simple. So the thing is, the other, the other thing that people do with all of this is make it seem, it's so complicated. How can we ever figure it out? Let's start with some very simple things. How do you hold your staff meeting? How do you, how do you invite people into that?

MH: Yeah. Yeah.

LMP: Who creates that agenda, right?

MH: Yes. That's the main

LMP: It really is, it can be the simplest of things...

MH: Yes, yeah.

LMP: ...at the starting place, right? Is it only the hierarchical leadership that creates that agenda? Who's involved in any type of planning for programming?

MH: Yeah.

LMP: Is it only the top? Or are we fully embracing and understanding the power that comes from hearing from across the board?

MH: Yeah.

MH: Just a quick break to note that the Shared Power podcast is sponsored by Freedom Lifted and our flagship training program, Justice at Work. Justice at Work offers blended learning and professional development for organizations and individuals who are strengthening their commitment to justice and equity in their workplaces and in their communities. This training combines discussions with online modules that teach frameworks and critical history to help you examine the relationship between identity and power. You'll even have opportunities to join live group discussions facilitated by me, Mia Henry, go beyond diversity and inclusion to find your role in building a more just and equitable world. Learn more and sign up at freedomlifted.com.

LMP: There, there, there's an organization, You Can, I don't know if you're familiar with them, but they do very deep youth work. And one of the things that I truly found fascinating about them and really encourage organizations that I work with to adopt, they do cross training of all staff. So even the maintenance person has been trained in youth development, how to deescalate something, right? To help, how to see these young people, how to engage to be supported, right? Everyone across the board has learned some of the basics of this work, right? That's sharing, that's sharing power. Because really you think that the maintenance person isn't going to be contact with young people as they go and leave the building, the receptionist, again, as you spoke about that librarian, the first point of context. And you don't want to share power with that person?

MH: Yes.

LMP: The first point of the contact.

MH: And that, that's one of the things, you know, with the, my, the training that I do with public libraries and other nonprofits, the hybrid training really allows people to offer it to everyone in their organization. And I'm like, oh, you know, I'm so proud that I've been able to work with others to develop this way that everyone can get the same information. So we have that shared language and that trust that I think are conditions for shared power. Right? So,

LMP: Which is what comes from my, a committee.

MH: Yeah. Yeah.

LMP: So that people who typically wouldn't be in those types of engagements looking at data, right? Making this I, that's who I want in that. I want a good cross-section.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: I do not want only leadership.

MH: That's, that's what I was gonna say. So many people get the train, they see, I, that the training can be for everybody, Lisa Marie.

LMP: Yes.

MH: And they still only, only wanna do it for leadership.

LMP: That's right.

MH: They only wanna do it for leadership. And I'm not saying there are, there is definitely work that leadership or, you know, hierarchical organizational  leadership needs to do. They're not the only ones. And then even understanding and defining who leadership is in an organization is a reflection of how they understand power.

LMP: It's one of the reasons I ask about who has power, who's seen as having power, because often it's not, and who's seen as a leader.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: 'Cause often who's seen as a leader and who's seen as having power is someone who doesn't even have a leadership title. As I said, my parents gave real good guidance. Now, when you get there to college, make sure you make good contact with the secretary, the receptionist, the administrative person at the dean's office, because they really know,

MH: Yes, yes.

LMP: they know what's going on. Oh no, they gave the guidance. They understood.


MH: Yes.

LMP: Even that wasn't their language, right? But they understood where power set different from in reality, where people believed it set.

MH: Yes. Yeah.

LMP: Right?

MH: Yeah. Well. Yeah. They think they're too good for these, these relationships.

LMP: Yes.

MH: You know?

LMP: Well, I, I miss my regular garbage men. When I lived at 80th and Blackstone, I had, you know, before the city did all the crazy things with, you know, altering things. You, you, there were, you had a regular postman that you got to know over decades.

MH: I know. Yeah.

LMP: You had your regular garbage. They, I would make a pitcher of Kool-Aid. I said, what color y'all want? So they'd bring, they had two jars, a jar that I gave them. And then the jar said, what, what, what color you want for next week? They'd bring that jar back, I'd give 'em another jar.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: But, tt's that type, again, I use, I keep going back to that example, but so significant, the power they had.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: Right?

MH: Yeah.

LMP: In terms of keeping, keeping our alleyway clear, being responsive to the needs, right? I mean, again, people often look down on garbage men, right? And garbage men. That's an important role.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: The various strikes have told us what?!

MH: Yeah. Yeah.

LMP: Now, I mean, let's think,

MH: Right.

LMP: same thing. Let's reflect on hospitality...

MH: Right.

LMP: ...and how over COVID, I guess we didn't realize important how important people were that waited on our tables.

MH: Yeah. Well, that's the thing too. That's, that recognizing the value in everyone in your organization...

LMP: Yes.

MH: ...is also one of those key ingredients, right? The value of everyone in our communities. That's what true interdependence requires. It, it can't require you only, you know, only wanna talk to and build relationships with people you perceive have power and not recognize, right, the power that so many people have over our lives. And it, it's terrible that it would take an, you know, an emergency or a catastrophe or tragedy for us to really understand how interdependent we are. But those, those relationships, when you talk about the secretary, and I remember just having, and I, you know, just the relationships come from recognizing their value. Not from just trying to be strategic and get what you want out of people, but like, you recognize that the, the administrative assistant in these, when I was teaching this, they help, they know everything. They've been there longer than all the principals, all the people. The person who runs the supply closet, right? The, the supply room? Lisa Marie. What?

LMP: Yeah.

MH: They,

LMP: Yes.

MH: they impacted my daily, you know, feeling and satisfaction and my ability to do my job was more, you know, reliant on these folks. So you, we have to recognize that even though if society is not recognizing them through their compensation in their, you know, societal respect, we recognize them and that's where it, it has to begin right? This, and

LMP: We have an obligation to push, right? So again, helping organizations deal with it internally.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: Strengthens that very work they're doing externally, right?

MH: Yeah.

LMP: So, again, a lot of my organizations are engaged in social change and social justice work. What does it look like that you're fighting the fight, right, for shared power outside of the organization, right?

MH: Yeah.

LMP: Yet internally there's utter chaos.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: Dis - disenchantment with leadership around that very same issue.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: And I look at the organizations that have embraced this, have done, are doing the shift, right, the deep work and how much more powerful and effective they are in their work. There was one organization that I dated for over a year, because they came to me wanting DEI training.

MH: You dated them, you said?

LMP: Myself and Inhe Choi, my, my comrade in, in arms. And they came to both of us separately. And then we, we were like, okay, let's talk this through. How can we work with them? Took a, it took a year. And that's when we hit upon the organizational assessment and digging deep into shared power and inclusion. 'Cause that's really what was going on organizationally. It had nothing to do with DEI. Yeah. It was about false notions of shared power. A consultant had persuaded them to create this executive leadership team because it looked diverse and it would look good.

MH: Oh, wow.

LMP: I won't name that consultant. And it created chaos because it was not rooted in reality.

MH: Right. Right. And it's focused on optics instead of, instead of relationships.

LMP: And so it created confusion for the people on that team. It created confusion for the staff. And so ultimately in my work with them, that was disbanded because it, it had no true meaning.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: It had no true role, organizationally. The leader did not want to change. So often if I get a sense that the leader doesn't really want to do this work, I won't work with the organization. But because the organization had supported a group of people to come together, say what they believed the issue was, and go out and find their consultant, I felt at the very least, I can help these people, the staff of the organization, recognize what it could be and make a decision to move on. Right? And I, that was, oh, 2012. I am still in communication with people from that organization saying we're still using those tools.

MH: Excellent.

LMP: They may have moved on out of the organization. Again, we knew that the leader, we were clear, Inhe and I were clear the leader wasn't necessarily going to change, but the people wanted change. Right. And so we could not ignore their reach out. Right.

MH: Yeah.  

LMP: Yeah. So sometimes that's, that's why you're there.

MH: Yes. Yes. Well, I wanna comment first. I, you know, just everything you're saying resonates so well, because once we, we commit ourselves, I like how you said you were dating the organization, I think, and then,

LMP: Yeah.

MH: then you made a commitment to them?

LMP: A year.

MH: Right?

LMP: No, it was, for a year.

MH: Yeah. Yeah.

LMP: I don't think I courted them for quite that long.

MH: But you know, you courting the organization, right? Trying to figure it out. It, it's, it's almost too, we have to assess their willingness...

LMP: Yes.

MH: ...to not just, that's layered. They to not just think about externally how they are working with the people they're, they're, they're serving, the communities they're serving and how they're moving their campaigns, right, our policy work forward.

LMP: Yes.

MH: Which many of them, like you said, are usually, you know, they've thought about that a lot.

LMP: Right.

MH: They feel more responsible towards that mission. So that is usually not the root of the chaos. It's how they are with each other internally. And then that third layer is this individual, like how, going back to that example you had of the streets and sanitation person, and how he was able to recognize his power and, and, and walk in it. And it was like, you know, I've been in this work for a long time. This is not the smart way to do what needs to be done. I know what needs to be done, and I'm going to just take control over it. You know?

LMP: Absolutely.

MH: And - so this, we have a lot of people in organizations that can learn from the street and sans person about what? Don't, don't,

LMP: Abdicate,

MH: Abdicate! That's what I was saying before. Don't abdicate your responsibility, but it's also, you need to acknowledge the experiences you have been given and blessed with, you know, the power that has been passed on to you that has been fought and, and, and people have survived. So you can show up as a leader in this organization.

LMP: Absolutely.

MH: So we need to do some individual work too. What is it that is keeping and blocking us, right?

LMP: Yes.

MH: From being able to

LMP: Yes.

MH: to claim the power that we have

LMP: Yes.

MH: and then, and, and then be confident in this space so that we are able to share power. Because the hesitation either collectively or individually, when people get nervous about sharing power, it's about fear. It's always about fear. And that fear is coming from somewhere deep inside of you

LMP: Yeah.

MH: about your experiences. And that's okay. We gotta work that out. So you may need a little coaching individually, and you will need

LMP: That's right.

MH: some internal organizational work. And then, you know, if, so maybe you'll need some external as organizational work too.

LMP: That's correct.

MH: At least three layers,

LMP: At least.

MH: of thinking about our relationship with power. So, I so appreciate all the examples you've given, and I'm excited about this Radical Shift Academy you keep moving me with. So tell me and, and the people listening, right? What, what are you thinking around this radical shift?

LMP: Yeah. So, the whole idea behind the Radical Shift Academy, a black and brown disruptor lab, is to really try and think about the whole ecosystem of organizations, right? Who do we need to touch? What are all of the entities and people that need to be touched if we're going to make this paradigm shift right? To shared power. So you have, there really isn't a place necessarily for black and brown consultants to go, or people interested in being consultants and coaches to really go to be trained. I fortunately was mentored into this space.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: I was just fortunate that I found people that were my elders, that were brilliant people. Like ...Kadey Ceasay, Earl Durham, who has passed on, just, I was fortunate to encounter people. Heather Parish took me under the wing and taught me methodology, and then sent me for training. I mean, I was just fortunate. But there isn't a thing out there for us, right? Similarly, you have disparate programs where you might be able to go and take nonprofit training, you know, certifications and things like that. But it is not specific to us in our communities. More specifically, this is where the shift piece comes in, right? There isn't, there are all types of executive training entities, right? Where the executive come, the executive team of the organization might go for leadership training. There are all types of leadership training programs for leaders out there. And even when they are, for us, what is the root, what is the ultimate goal for those leaders, right? And then they're very seldom is anything for organizations themselves, where the whole organization is really being engaged, right? Let's say you fully develop that leader and they're really ready, but they come back, they still are coming back to the organization that's unprepared. So how do we structure something that touches all of that? And thus, the idea of the Radical Shift Academy was born, right? How do we do the thing that we've never seen done where you are working with all of that simultaneously, right? You are working with the individual consultant or person that wants to be a consultant or someone who's shifting, right? Perhaps they've had a different career, but how do you work with them in a way that rooted in our theory of change, it's really about transformation of our communities. So the, all of that is in service of transformation of black and brown communities, right? Not in service of the nonprofit, in and of itself, not in service of the leader to be a great leader in and of itself, not in service of the coach being a great coach in and of themselves, but fully indoctrinated in what is needed in our communities for transformation. Right? That's the difference. That's the piece that excites me so, right? And that's really what's needed if nonprofits are going to remain, right, a part of our community's ecosystem, right? And often does what government isn't doing right? I mean, that's the reason then we wanna make them the best that they can be. We wanna make those leaders the best that they can be. We wanna make those, the coaches and consultants that work with them the best that they can be in the service of transformation. That means they have to be steeped in share power from the beginning. As consultants, you must go in knowing you're sharing power. Right? It so, so it's about a shift for all of us, for all of those entities, right? And definitely when I talk about nonprofits and organizations, we're surely talking about philanthropy as a major, right, player in not understanding, not operating, not grasping the concept of shared power, right?

MH: Yeah.

LMP: Yes. - But if we're going to make this shift, we've got to hit all of those places and really do deep work in all of those places. So doing the individual work, doing the organizational work, thinking about the sector, touching the community, right?

MH: Yeah.

LMP: So that's, that's what we're talking about. And we really wanna disrupt things. We wanna disrupt our own stuff. We, we too have become complacent and participating in these notions that don't serve us. We've got to, we've gotta throw off those shackles, right? And really dig deep and talk about power in our community, right? In our organizations at the individual level, right? How do we shift this?

MH: Yeah.

LMP: So that's,

MH: Yeah. So many of what I believe we've talked about today is the paradigm shift, the, the I, I want everybody talking about shared power.

LMP: Exactly.

MH: That's what I want. And so what are all the different modalities

LMP: Exactly! T

MH: to get this, um sink this into this subconscious, you know,

LMP: Exactly.

MH: of our movement. So that,

LMP: To begin what I call the kind of cultural transformation, right? So I developed this tool with Crossroads to think about how movements kind of work and beginning with the cultural piece is really important. The, just the seeping in, the fact that people are talking about it is the first part of that, that circle, right?

MH: Yeah.

LMP: And then there's the bring the people themselves taking it up, and then it's institutions taking it up. And we never get to, and never have gotten to the sustainable transformation, which is why I've reframed my notion of the civil rights work is incomplete. We didn't get that fourth quadrant in, and we're destined to keep going back to a different part of the circle if we don't begin to focus more on the sustainable, how do we sustain these shifts?

MH: Yeah, yeah.

LMP: And not let them slip back so easily.

MH: Yeah. Yeah. Well, the thing about the civil rights too, for me in just, you know, learning from it and studying, coming back to it so often, is that it is so much framed in the po- in the policy change that came out of struggle.

LMP: Yes.

MH: Versus the, versus "struggle," like the process of the struggle. And so when you can and when you, it's easy to reverse. Hmm?

LMP: And depth.

MH: And depth, right. So it's easy to reverse.

LMP: Institutional change in those policies and so forth. But that doesn't mean anything truly changed.

MH: It doesn't mean anything truly changes. It doesn't mean it changed even when it changed, even when the policy happened, it didn't mean that that changed anything.

LMP: there are policies put forth now that are really good. But we still don't know about them yet.

MH: Yes.

LMP: Because they don't have any teeth.

MH: They don't have any teeth, they don't have any teeth. We talk about this, I talk about Brown versus Board of Education a lot because it is seen as such a, you know, seminal moment.

LMP: Yes.

MH: And there's so much we don't examine about Brown versus Board of education. We, we terribly boil it down to...

LMP: Yes.

MH: ...that's when schools were desegregated, which is not true. And, and it was, it was when the Supreme Court noted, you know, that it was unconstitutional. That's the only thing that happened that year. It didn't, schools weren't desegregated. We don't talk about the so many decades of parents organizing to even get to the Supreme Court. We don't talk about the multiple cities that were part of that case. And we don't even talk about what black people wanted in their organization, which is to be able to go to whatever school they wanted to go to, including their own and be resourced, right? In that autonomy. That's it! And so then, but that's so scary, right? That's not because of how, you know, dominant powers were able to reshape, you know, the outcomes of that decision.

LMP: Yeah.

MH: It became, okay, white people can, black people can go to white schools, black schools get shut down, white people don't have to go to black schools because we're not recognizing both as valuable, and we won't even, you know, allow them to come to white schools either, in most cases have to be forced into it.

LMP: So we're back in the cycle again.  What, what did I hear you say? We're back in that cycle again?

MH: We're back in. Well, it never, but it was never, it was never addressed at the root. That's the thing. That's the thing. Schools that black kids are going to, should be resourced. That is it. And black people should be able to go to any school they wanna go to. And any of those school, all those schools should be resourced. That's it. So, those are the two, and neither of those things are addressed with Brown versus Board of Education.

LMP: And we still have not addressed it.

MH: And we still have not addressed it. And so the, so that's what, when, when you say that of like having consultants and having, you know, people think about what is the prize y'all?

LMP: That, that's the work we should be doing, right?

MH: This is - right. This is it. So then all these other things, the supporting leaders, the trainings, the supporting, the coaching, all that is towards what is it towards, what is it towards? It will help you figure out the decisions of even who we're need to be working with.S

LMP: Yeah.

MH: So,

LMP: So we took ourselves through the same process we would take a client through: develop a mission statement, a vision statement. I'm like, oh, we need our own theory of change. We need to be really clear here, right?

MH: Yeah.

LMP: For what the, what the ultimate impact is. And it's about transforms communities.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: Black and brown communities. That's what that's about.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: Right? Everything is in the service of that.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: And I don't mean that in a, like a mercenary way. I care about consultants being good consultants, but I care about you knowing and operating from the space that we're about transforming community.

MH: Yeah, yeah.

LMP: I really care about that.

MH: Learning from that. Yeah yeah.

LMP: Right. And I really care about your leadership development to serve that end.

MH: Yes. Yes. Alright, thank you so much for your time today. You know, before you go, Lisa Marie, I wanna ask you, you know, what is just one piece of advice you would give to people in organizations trying to move toward shared power? Even before or instead of hiring a consultant, right? Like, just to even shift thinking, what is the one thing you would advise people, organizations to, to start doing, to start reflecting on?

LMP: Yeah. I would ask people to start reflecting on their own experience of shared power, either in their personal lives, professional lives, right? Reflect on when power was shared with them, what happened when power wasn't shared with them, what happened, how did they feel? And engage their staff and board with the same questions as a way to begin to gauge and kind of take the temperature of where people are at your organization around that as a concept, a practice, a way of being.

MH: Excellent.

LMP: And THEN bring in a consultant.

MH: Yes.

LMP: Don't be the president and the client. Right? You wanna bring in someone externally to really help with that process. But again, beginning to have those discussions, do a short survey to collect some of that information. I think that's a wonderful place to start.

MH: Yes. Right. Yeah.

LMP: But be honest about why you're collecting that. Know that you must move forward with that because otherwise you're replicating, you're taking data from people and then you're gonna do nothing. So you need to, if you're gonna do it, you've got to be ready to take some next steps and honor what people share with you.

MH: Yes.

LMP: Because that's another piece of the shared power piece. No one's, everyone understands that for some things you are only giving input, right? What people don't like organizationally is that you ask for input and then you don't actually take it, you don't use it as far, you just collect the data.

MH: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

LMP: And you had already made up your mind. That's so, you know, all of that needs to be kind of talked about. It don't, if you aren't really seeking input on a particular thing, don't pretend you're seeking input.

MH: Right.

LMP: It, it's better to say, you know what, on this particular thing, I have a, I have clarity and I'm, I know that we need to move forward. It's better to say that because you work against yourself, if you then ask for input and don't really use it and move forward with some of it.

MH: Yeah.

LMP: That, that's worse.

MH: Yes. Absolutely. I have definitely worked with people who asking for opinions because they, they believe they're supposed to ask for opinions, but they don't really have the intention of using the, the data. So, yeah,

LMP: That's more harm.

MH: that's more harmful. And it's not, that is not seeing the value of your people. In fact, it is wasting their time. They want to you to,

LMP: Right. You don't value them or their time.

MH: Right. Right.

LMP: What you're paying them for

MH: And, and

LMP: unless you're making them do it in addition to their work. So that's a whole nother discussion.

MH: That's a whole 'nother thing. And then that's gonna come back to decreasing trust, right?

LMP: Yes.

MH: It erodes trust. And then it's gonna be really difficult for you to invite people into a process later when you really are, you know, ready because you've, you've eroded trust by being inauthentic to begin with. So, you know, I really appreciate that. Be, you know, be true to yourself about what...

LMP: Be true to yourself.

MH: ...what you willing and ready to do and what, what not.

LMP: Wooooo!

MH: Well, it, it has been such a pleasure talking to you yet again, recorded this time, but to talking to you about shared power and just your whole way of being. You know, Lisa Marie, you do hard work with people. You, you, you link arms with people to, to do the difficult work of transformational change, and you do it with such joy and lightness and laughter and honesty. I am so just proud to know you.

LMP: Same here

MH: Thank you so much for joining the Shared Power Podcast.

LMP: Thank you.

MH: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Shared Power Podcast. This podcast is a production of Freedom Lifted, a company that provides training, facilitation, and coaching for leaders rooted in justice and equity. It is produced and edited by Cassaundra Sampson at It's 97. Production support, also provided by Alysia Tate, Amber Kinney, Alicia Buenger, and The AK Collective. For more information about our work, visit freedomlifted.com or follow us at Freedom Lifted on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn. Join us next time as we continue to unlock the ingredients for leading with shared power.

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